Kyley and Eva explore the real roots of burnout, the difference between desire and proving, and why so many people feel torn between achievement and inner alignment. They unwind the cultural belief that you must choose between being connected to your soul and creating a successful life, and offer a grounded alternative: ambition becomes nourishing when it’s linked to desire instead of fear.
Kyley and Eva explore the real roots of burnout, the difference between desire and proving, and why so many people feel torn between achievement and inner alignment. They unwind the cultural belief that you must choose between being connected to your soul and creating a successful life, and offer a grounded alternative: ambition becomes nourishing when it’s linked to desire instead of fear.
A listener asks:
Hello Universe. I'm feeling overwhelmed by hustle culture and the constant push to achieve more. I'm ambitious and I want a life that feels successful, but I also feel like I'm burning out. Can ambition and spirituality actually coexist, or am I trying to merge two things that don't fit? How do I find balance when one part of me wants to go big and another part just wants to breathe? Signed Ambitious, but Spiritual.
What we cover in this episode:
✨ Why burnout is a signal, not a personal failure
🌱 The difference between ambition and desire (and why one drains you while the other fuels you)
🌀 How proving-energy pulls us into chasing, urgency, and depletion
💭 Relearning how to listen to your desire when it’s buried under productivity culture
🔥 Why the stories we carry about success often trace back to capitalism, colonialism, and old survival strategies
💗 The emotional vulnerability of receiving, resting, and telling the truth about what you need
💫 How presence creates the kind of impact hustle alone never can
🛑 The role of safety: why rest, desire, and “being” can feel uncomfortable at first
🌿 What it looks like to let parts of your identity crumble so something truer can take shape
🌈 How clarity about who you are shifts your definition of success
🎢 Parenting, intuition, and the small everyday initiations that mirror the bigger spiritual journey
🌙 Why being comes before doing, and why everything changes when you let that become your internal compass
This episode is a conversation about returning to yourself, honouring the truth of what you want now, and letting being - not doing - become the source of your impact.
💫 Connect with Eva & Kyley
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https://portal.kyleycaldwell.com/inevitable
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https://portal.kyleycaldwell.com/torchbearer-workshop
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Kyley: [00:00:00] Welcome to Hello Universe. It's Kyley.
Eva: and it's Eva.
Kyley: We have another advice column episode for you, and this one is I think, very applicable to Eva and I, so we're gonna jump right in. universe. I'm feeling overwhelmed by hustle culture and the constant push to achieve more. I'm ambitious and I want a life that feels successful, but I also feel like I'm burning out. Can ambition and spirituality actually coexist, or am I trying to merge two things that don't fit? How do I find balance when one part of me wants to go [00:01:00] big and another part just wants to breathe? Signed ambitious, but spiritual.
Eva: Woo hoo. Well, I'm gonna jump in with some good news and say that it is app. Absolutely 100% possible to be incredibly ambitious and successful and spiritual. And I, and we know this to be true because there are many examples of that out there in our real life, um, who have like, you know, big impact, big businesses making big money.
And also as leaders, we can see that many of them are really leading from a very spiritual way of living. How we do that though, I think is actually what is the trickier part, which is like what this listener is really asking about. But I do wanna just start off with saying like, it is absolutely possible they are not mutually exclusive.
And I think in some ways what the speaker or this listener speaking to is a really good point of like what we all really wanna try to, um, the, the balance that so many of us are want [00:02:00] to, trying to strike Kyley and I included. It's like, oh, we have big ambitious dreams and goals. And, um, sometimes we get tired.
And also, and also what does that, like, does that mean that if I'm ambitious, I almost feel like that's what's implied in this question too. Like if I'm, if I'm ambitious, does that mean that I can't be spiritual? And I don't,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I, I know that from firsthand that that's also not true. You know, they're not mutually exclusive.
Kyley: Yes. And I, I love this question because I am a. Deeply ambitious person
and a deeply spiritual person. And I feel like I live at the intersection of this question a lot. Like I live this tension a lot, and I think a lot of my work is actually informed by how to do, at least in some ways, how to do this very, this very thing. Um, because, because I think it's so tempting to. To feel like these things [00:03:00] are either or, or to feel like they're at odds with one another. And I think the biggest thing that I wanna say at to start is, um, how ambition that leads to burnout. Like the kind of ambition that makes us feel like we are burning out. Means that we're like under fueled, right? If you're experiencing that kind of burnout or if you're experiencing like teetering on it, it means that somehow you're giving more than you actually have to give, and I think often. That is happening because we're trying to prove something through our ambition, right?
And so, and I say this as someone who wants to manage 25 people without a single support staff, right? Like, uh, and I wasti and I, I had a newborn baby. Like I was tired. Um, and, um, and I was, I was really trying to prove that I was good and that I was valuable and that I was smart and [00:04:00] that I was likable. And the. Like there was a way that I was doing too much, um, because I was just trying so hard to prove something about myself to myself, but I was trying to prove it by a proxy, right? Like if my bosses, or if the sales goal or if whatever, like if that check mark gets hit, then that will like swing back and then that will prove that I am enough. And I think that one of, one of the answers to this question, to your point is like. There is a there, absolutely. These two energies can go hand in hand, but how we do it is important and one facet of how we do that I think is actually divesting where. Ambition is actually really wrapped up in this, like trying to prove something like proving energy and which then actually is wrapped up in chasing energy. And if you're chasing something, that chasing energy is like locked in. I always use the metaphor of like the carrot dangling at the end of the stick. Like you don't get any [00:05:00] fucking closer. Like when you're in chasing mode, you are just chasing. Um, and so that also then you're just running a race that you can't win. Um. I think of a key piece is recognizing what am I trying to prove through my ambition that I don't already believe about myself, and how do I give myself that first instead of like as a reward for good behavior.
Eva: Yeah, I mean this is really a big foundational, like this is this, you do talk about this a lot in your work, right? Being, being basically, essentially like being aligned. And I think this listener who wrote in this question, this burnout piece is a big clue. Like in reading that to me, I'm like, okay, well there's, if you're feeling burned out, that's good to notice because it is telling you something that's basically outta whack.
And yes to like the whole proving thing. But also, and I think it, I mean for me, that's definitely also how it showed up. And I also think it could just be like. [00:06:00] I mean, I think to the listener and to anyone who can relate to this question, I think maybe it's just asking yourself like, why are you burned out?
Where is the burnout, burnout coming from? Do you know what I mean? Because I think it can be proving. I think it could also be like, um, yeah, actually it's actually, yeah, proving is a big part. It's all that same flavor, you know, like a not enoughness or like, I need to, like my, my value is, and my worth is in my productivity, or something like that.
But sometimes I can get for me or like. Burning out for me, and I was just talking to Kyley about this, um, offline is also has been like, when I'm in this performative state, you know, when I'm just like, not something is off and it's icky and I am like, my energy is just, I'm being, being used in places where it's leaking and going into places where it shouldn't be going.
You know what I mean? It's just something is just off. And I think once we get in touch with. What is going on within us that's causing the burnout [00:07:00] that I think can be like worked with so that you can still go for your dream and do whatever it is that you want, and if you go for the big ambitious goals that you have without needing to do it in the same way that's causing the burnout.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, I think that, I think that makes a lot of sense. The other thing that I'm thinking about is the difference between ambition and desire. And I think
there's a Venn diagram again, like I don't, I you like you're talking to a Capricorn and an Aries moon, like we
we're,
Eva: we love.
Kyley: can't help. Yeah. We love ambition. Um, and I don't wanna throw shade on it and the energy. The negative parts of ambition, I think are often because they're like divested from desire or they're disconnected from desire, right? It's like, oh, like I really want to sleep, but, [00:08:00] but I'm gonna ignore that and I'm gonna stay up late writing a bunch of emails because I think I have to because I'm trying to prove something, 'cause I'm in performance or whatever.
The why is to your point, like,
what, what's going on there?
Eva: is another big key thing for
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Um, and, um. And also that there are just like, let's just be, also, there are just periods in your life where you don't have a choice, right? Like there's also just periods in your life where like, you know, like when last year when your, all of your parents
needed a lot of help and you just didn't have the choice to be like, I want to sleep.
And also,
you know, I need to show up. Um, but I think, I think when my ambition drains me, it's often because it's disconnected from. Desire and I'm not actually asking myself like what I want or how I want, how I want to show up. And so one of the key ways I think we can avoid this kind of like burnout [00:09:00] and extraction relationship with ambition is to like really connect to and honor what it is we actually want. And not as an end result, but in the now, right? Like,
I want rest or I want. Companionship or I like, like,
you know, meaning like a friend who you talk through the difficulties
of your business with.
If, if that's the case. Um, because we often, we often do this thing where we're, where we think, okay, well if I, I'm gonna use business as an example 'cause that's obviously what a lot of my clients are working with. Like, if I have a successful launch, then I will be able to rest. Or when I have a successful launch, then I will be able to hire support and. What we're doing there is like making our desires contingent on something in the future, and breaking this, which then feeds that chasing energy, which then feeds this like exhaustion. And then our ambition is actually quite painful. But if we connect to our desire, we say, oh, okay, my desire is that. [00:10:00] After I get this promotion, I will have a support staff member.
Or after I get this, have this successful launch, I will hire someone that's telling me I want help now. So what does it look like for me to experience, support and care with the resources I have available to me now, not contingent on something in the future, which then is that chasing, earning. And that's tricky because a lot of us. Especially a lot of us who are ambitious have learned to press our desires down and it can actually be really hard to even figure out what the fuck you, I had a really, really, really amazing client for a long time, and one time I would say, but client, what do you want? She would just go, oh, fuck off. And I
Eva: Yeah.
Yeah. Because sometimes we don't know what we want.
Yeah.
We're running a hundred miles a minute and we think we're heading in the direction that we, when we don't actually know what we want.
Kyley: Yeah.
And, and, and we do the thing where we want the material thing without on, without really acknowledging why we want [00:11:00] the, um. Imma what the immaterial
thing is in there, right? So one of the reasons why I love talking about money is like everybody wants more money, right? Or like lots of people want more money, but the why, like why you might want money and why I might want money or why I want money now versus six months ago, like are often different. But we don't honor that. We think like, well, if I get the external thing, then I'll figure it out.
Instead of like, oh, like I am tired, right?
I feel really, really tired and I have this idea that. There'll be some success tipping point where I'll be allowed to rest and therefore we like ignore that we want rest now.
We don't give it to ourselves now.
Um, often because to your point about safety, we don't feel safe with it now. And then again, that just like feeds this chasing, which feeds this burnout,
which feeds fascist overlords.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and so I, I, I think starting to be intimate. Starting to get an intimate understanding of what you want and then figuring [00:12:00] out how to honor that now. It's a really vital way of like crumbling the painful parts of ambition.
Eva: [00:13:00] [00:14:00] Yeah, I mean this is a lot of what you teach on and also help people with like in work it's like, 'cause it's okay. So it's just an interesting thing to me. 'cause what you're speaking to then is like. When we get really closely in touch with our desires and then honor them, um, there's like a beautiful thing happening there because we're, that to me is a spiritual practice.
Like that is part of what it is to like be a sp like be a, a spiritual soul, to be able to live from our desires and be in touch with what they are and express them and enjoy them and communicate them while also at the same time what you're speaking to is once we get in touch with our desires, that helps us.
It helps our ambition, I think like our, our energy and our action that we take, move, like towards ambition, feel much more aligned, which then also helps with the burnout thing. 'cause then we're not so burned out. So it's all, you know, all together, it's all helping. It's all tied together and connected. And, and there is a way, I think what you're speaking to, and again, this is what you help a lot of people with, [00:15:00] is like, um, how to move towards our goal and our desires.
Like with. Our hearts and our soul, which I think is the spiritual practice. They don't need to be, they're, they're not supposed to be, uh, they're not mutually exclusive, you
Kyley: yeah.
Well, and I feel like, I'm curious if this feels true for you. 'cause I feel like there's a lot of spiritual, like historically a lot of spiritual conversation about how our, like desires are sinful or how like. You know, even like, you know, Buddhism obviously has a lot of like, you know, disconnection from your desire.
There's a lot of rich
spiritual traditions, some of which are toxic and some of which are not that kind of vilify or make wrong our desire. And
I think what you and I are both experience is how much desire, like living in intimate relationship with my desire is as you said, like is the spiritual practice. [00:16:00] Um, does that feel true to you also?
Eva: I mean that's, I mean, snaps to that because that's such an interesting point that I feel like we could do a whole nother like q and a on or like have a podcast on, because I think it is. More for me now. For sure. And I also know what that's like to have, and I still do it. I think sometimes it'll like creep back in this old habit of like, I should be happy with, you know what I have like simplicity, you know, very much like this Buddhist, uh, which I don't actually think that's what they're teaching.
I think it actually just gets distorted, you know what I mean? And then, and then we think that it's saying like, I need to live a very simple life and I should be grateful already for what I have. And like, uh. You know, like greed is, you know, if I want too much vent, too ambitious, I'm being greedy, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So, um, it was a, that was a lot louder before, and it still ha can creep back in, in sneaky ways. [00:17:00] And, and at the same time though, so much of our spiritual, my spiritual practice is just like about following your heart. You know, and that includes like, it's, that's not different to me from like knowing, being connected to your desires and your heart.
Kyley: Yeah. And, and what I see all the fucking time with my clients and with myself is like when we honor and center our desires and we figure what they are and we honor them and center them, especially the emotional, experiential parts, right? Like the rest, not the achievement part. That's where the fucking success shows up.
Like literally just yesterday had this
conversation with a client where we were talking about this part of her who's just like so tired of being resilient. You should just, just like the, like we've all got this part. Like, oh, I just always have to figure out how to pick myself back up and I'm really tired and we have this really beautiful journey about. Connecting to this part of her who's tired and we like put her in a ham and we put her in like, I think it was like a cozy hammock with her book, you know? And it was just like, yeah, what if you didn't [00:18:00] have to be the one to figure it all out and get, be resilient? And, and we honored the desire to not try so fucking hard.
And she caught off the call and got a letter her in the mail from her bank that she had $2,000. Just, just, just didn't know about. They'd
overpaid something and like. It is just like the perfect example of how like honoring your desire and living from that place is the thing that unlocks the success that you want.
Instead, we do this thing where it's like, and this is where ambition gets twisted, and I fall into this a lot and have to unlearn it on the daily, but it's like the ambitious ambition says if I. If I effort enough, then I can have what I want. And like actual spiritual practice, I find an actual success happens when we figure out what we want, honor it,
and [00:19:00] then that brings the, the, the
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: and the external.
Eva: That's so interesting because ugh, that's, that's when I think manifestation is like a real thing. And so
I think listeners know both Kelly and I have give like manifest manifestation culture, the side eye a lot, you know? But I think what you're speaking to. When I think of manifestation, like that's actually what I think of as in like, instead of thinking about like what I don't have and what I don't have, and then it's actually like what you just said to simplify what you just said.
Like, like living from, you know, and, and not from this place of like, um, and, and giving myself like what I need. You know, not waiting until I finally fucking whatever, figuring it it out so that I can finally get what I need. Do you know what I'm saying? So I'm kinda getting sidetracked. But I do think, um, you're absolutely right, like that we, that we have it backwards often.[00:20:00]
Kyley: yeah. And so like I'm wanting to just unwrap a bunch of the toxic shit off of ambition so that it can be something truer and closer to your heart. And then that's where what we have been calling ambition can be become something that's closer to a spiritual truth and they stop feeling at odds, you know, and they start to feel.
Eva: But what's so interesting to me is 'cause like as I continue to read this question over and over, what I'm seeing is like, I don't know this person's background, but you know, her question is, their question is, can ambition and spirituality actually coexist? Or am I trying to merge two things that don't fit?
Um. It's really striking me that I wonder if this person is coming from a background where they really believe that actually spirituality like gets in the way of being successful. And I, and I. And I, that's just so interesting to me. 'cause I think, I know a lot of people [00:21:00] who live that way. They're like, I really just wanna have like a life where I'm really connected to like God and source and nature and like whatever.
And, and, and also just be, be present. But I can't do that because if I do that, it means I cannot be successful. Like there's a lot of people who actually believe that and that kind of blows. My mind and I, I have some people in mind who are like, I have some friends who are like Silicone Valley type people, and they're like, they just live in this culture that's so different from the culture that I know that when I talk to some of my friends, I'm like, holy shit.
Like I forget that that is actually oftentimes that's. The norm, at least in America. I'm like, whoa, I forgot. There's this whole culture of hustle and work and like that's the most important thing. And to them, I might just be like the woo woo, airy fairy like super spiritual person who they're like, yeah, that's not real.
You know? And I, I hope it doesn't sound con sound condescending, but it, but it makes me a little bit sad 'cause I'm like, oh, I forget [00:22:00] that there are a lot of people in the world who. Who live that way, where these two are separate, you have to choose between one or the other.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: um, I don't know what else, what do you know?
What are your thoughts on that? I go, I don't know how, what else it's to say about that. I'm like, that's just, that is the problem with wholesale culture, like that is the toxicity of the world that we live in when we are like really indoctrinated into thinking. That in order to be successful, I can't like live from this spiritual place because it makes me soft and it makes me not work as hard or it makes me, um, you know, whatever, to like, I'm not gonna, like you were saying, I'm not gonna like speak to what you were speaking to.
I need to work hard so that I can get what I want later. And they're like, if I don't do that, then I'm gonna screw myself and then I'm not gonna have like the nice big house that I really want and like. You know, whatever the, the, [00:23:00] the big ticket items that I think a lot of people relate to when they think about success.
Kyley: Well, and I think, I think also. Presence, spirituality, vulnerability, like all our des honoring our desires. Like all of that is, well, it's vulnerable,
right? And if we, because of the world we live in, because of our traumas, because of our like, you know, reactive nervous systems, like whatever might be going on,
Eva: Yeah. Capitalism.
Kyley: right?
Like presence, like true presence. It doesn't actually feel safe,
right? To put your guard down, to be present. Like all of those things are like really vulnerable
and uncomfortable, and so.
Eva: Rest. Rest. It can feel
Kyley: This is terrifying, right? I mean,
I talk to, people talk a lot about how like receiving, one of the reasons money is complicated is 'cause like receiving is really fucking vulnerable, right?
[00:24:00] It is like a, it can actually be really uncomfortable even if it's the thing that you want. So, so, which is also why not to beat a dead horse. Not that that metaphor is awful, but like, which is also why we, we actually like the chasing energy. Chasing rest is safer than letting yourself rest.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Because actually letting yourself rest is scary and vulnerable.
Chasing it is like a backdoor way to be like, oh yeah, I see the desire.
I'm not gonna give it to myself yet,
because it's scary. It's like, it's
actually uncomfortable. You know? You go to sit down and be like, okay, you know, I'm gonna be president, and you're like, wiggling. You're picking it up your phone.
You're right.
Eva: Yeah. 'cause you have to be with yourself. Your mind gets super duper loud. You notice your body and you're like, well, I don't wanna be with all this. Yeah.
Kyley: you have to realize how much your mind is like, kind of like maybe is not a kind place to
be. Right. And so, um, and so I, I think, I think this what you're speaking to about how [00:25:00] pervasive it is that we are like kind of locked into this like hustle and extraction, ambitious energy. There is sadness there and I think. I feel sad for myself for all the ways that I get stuck in there and, and, and,
um,
Eva: because I definitely have it internalized too. Like let's not, let's not misrepresent here. Yeah.
Kyley: Um, but I think, yeah, it makes spirituality, which is to say I think we're speaking to like presence. Seem like, well, wouldn't that be nice? Right. As opposed to but but, but a threat. Right. Wouldn't that be nice? But it's a threat because if I were to really be present, if I were to really like honor my desires, if I were really to like, be with this now, everything would fucking crumble.
And I would be like left in the rumble and that's not safe. And so I have to, I have to like continue to [00:26:00] hustle because my family needs me because I need me because,
because, because, and I think that's like. The violence of capitalism and colonialism, honestly, as well as our individual traumas running through our systems.
Eva: Woo. Okay. So I was not expecting this conversation to go there, but of course now that now that I'm seeing this question, I'm like, how could it not go there? Because I really think what's rooted at the root of this question is also like dismantling capitalism within us.
That's what this is all about, which is something that Kyley and I have been doing for ourselves for.
A while for a long time. And, and I say that meaning like it takes time. It takes time, and I'm still, and I still get so wrapped up in what, you know, like when my chronic fatigue comes in and I can't be productive, I get, I can get really, my nervous system can get totally out of whack because I still have the story of like, I'm not safe if I'm not working, blah, blah, blah.
I, I mean, I don't know where this person is on their journey, but wherever you are, I'm like, congratulations, like this is a good [00:27:00] place to be. Like, yay, I'm happy for you. Like, asking these questions are so big. It's the beginning of awakening is what it is, is how I'm seeing it, you know?
Kyley: yeah. Yes. Yeah. And like it's vulnerable and uncomfortable and everything that we want is on the other side of like letting go. Right.
You know, this person said like, um, wants to go big one, part of me wants to go big, and another part wants to just breathe. And what I hear in that is like, those are actually in their truest form.
Those are two sides of the same coin,
you know?
Eva: Yeah, like you do both. You get to have both. Like that's why this work is so gratifying and also worth it, even though it can be. In like a lot of things. It can be scary, it can be infuriating, it can be confusing, it can be triggering. But ultimately like, but we do it because it brings us back to [00:28:00] truth, which, when I say truth, I just mean like that, that like that the, the, that's like what we really want.
Like that's what we want. What we really want is to go big and also to have space to just to to, to have the ability to just be, and. I think with capitalism we're sold the story that you have to choose one,
and if we go down that road, we're like trapped in that system forever and it's a fucking shitty place to be.
Kyley: [00:29:00] and people who move. From the place of like presence, from that connection to their desire, from that connection to like the vulnerable present. People who move from that place, they're, when they step, when they move, it's a fucking big movement, right? Like when, when you move exclusively from the place of like hustle and doing and proving. It's like a lot of harried short steps, right? You're just like sprinting all the time. Like the, like white rabbit. I'm gonna be late. What gonna be late? Right?
Um, Alison Wonderland, if anyone was to not following that. Um, but when you are, like, when you are [00:30:00] present from the place of, um, like when you act from that place of presence, when you go down into yourself and then figure out how you wanna move from that place, those are the footsteps that like. Shake shit off, right? That have an impact that get people to like fucking pay attention.
Um, and so not only do I think you get to have both, but I actually think the kind of, if you are an ambitious person, the kind of impact you want to have. Actually comes from dropping down into desire and into presence. Um, and some of the frustration and the friction that you end up feeling is because your action is disembodied, your action is disconnected from this greater source of power, and which then leads to the burnout, which leads to the tiredness. So they're like less impactful steps and they cost you more.
And when we root down.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: Into these other things, then like they're bigger steps. They [00:31:00] have more of an impact and they nourish you instead of drain you.
Eva: Hmm. Yeah. I think what you're speaking to is like really big, and again, I think this is also like what you help people with, but it's like this is the path of like living in alignment with your soul, like living in alignment.
And sometimes I think that word can get overused and it's like, what do I even mean? I don't, I can't think of a, of a better phrase. I'm sure there's something else out there, but, but. It is the path of awakening, essentially what you're speaking to. That's it's, it's a beautiful thing. You come more into your power and you get clear, and also you get clear on your desires.
And I think in all of that, things can evolve. And I think it'd be also interesting to take a look at like what's. Success even means to you after you've sort of done some of this evaluation and, and, and connecting with yourself. And that's gonna be really interesting too. And sometimes that can be scary because all of a sudden what you thought you wanted, suddenly it's like looking really, really different.
And um, it's [00:32:00] okay. Death and rebirth. Death and rebirth, that's what we're all here to do, baby. Like we die. We are reborn and we die. And we're born again. And, um, welcome. Yeah. Welcome.
Kyley: offer, of course, it will look different. Like that's the other thing that happens. I mean, if listen. Wanna go back to one of our weirder episodes I shared like four years ago now about this mushroom trip I had without taking any mushrooms.
Eva: Yeah, I think like we called it that, if you wanna go look it up, it's a really a two part episode. Like Kyley has a psychedelic trip without taking mushrooms or something like that.
Kyley: yes. Um, and to date still the most like mystical thing that has ever happened, and. As it was like unfurling. I remember so distinctly hearing this voice that was just saying like, it's never what you think it is. Right? And 'cause I, and in that moment I was like laughing really intensely about some seals. Anyway, you should listen to it. It's a great episode. But, um, but, but I have heard that line over and over again in life where like I kind of crest a mountaintop [00:33:00] and then I hear it's never what you think it is.
And I have the euphoria, or I have the relief, or I have the. The kind of breakthrough joy that my ambitious self was, was pulling me towards. But it always looks, it always fucking looks different. And I think, um, and I think sometimes we're afraid to let it be different, so we like grasp too tightly to like, oh, I want. You know, abundance and I want it to look this specific way. And so we like grasp and we, and we, and we, that's another way that we, I think burn ourselves out is we're holding too tightly on some onto something that isn't actually for us. And it's not that we can't have the thing, but it is that the thing that we want ends up having to look different.
Right. So. You know, the, the younger Kyley who had all this ambition in this career and like, wanted, you know, wanted certain things out of her professional career. Well, like I have those now. It looks fucking different. It looks better.
But there was a lot of like, there was a lot [00:34:00] of upheaval in letting go along the way to get to the here, even though here is like what I wanted
along. And I'll feel the same way when I look back 10 years from now on this. I'm sure.
Eva: It never that, that saying that comes up again and again. Like I use it, you know, because it's just so true. And you know, folks, you hopefully you can borrow it on your next trip. You know, medicine, medicine, journey trip. It might pop into your, your psyche and you'll laugh because I mean, many of you already get it.
It's never what you think it is.
Kyley: No.
Eva: And it's so funny. And life is hilarious like that. And I feel that's just like a little, there's like a comic cosmic joke there. You know, she just kind of
Kyley: Yes. And
she's, I, and I also get the image a lot too, where she's like, you think you know, but your vision is so small. Like my vision for you is so much bicker.
So like, let me take you there.
Um, but, and I will also offer this. You gotta, you kind of gotta die a whole bunch of times along the process. That's the [00:35:00] other thing that's, I think, hard and the other reason why I think we stay in the space of a like tiring
burnout kind of ambition instead of this like more rooted desire. 'cause when you start to make the shift. The shit that wasn't, the shit that's been draining you, the shit that's like been causing harm. Like things will start to crumble and it's actually, it's inevitable and it is a good thing and it fucking hurts like hell sometimes.
Right. And we, I think intuitively know that, you know that if we let ourselves. Embody the full, embody our fullness, really live from our desire. All these things we're talking about, I think some part of us often understands that like the foundation will rumble, things will fall.
And I think we're often afraid of the cost or we're afraid of what that will feel like. Um, [00:36:00] and you gotta do it anyway.
Eva: Yeah, you have to do it anyway, because I think this goes back to like, you can have both and, and that's a beautiful thing. You can, you can have the big, the big and also have the being and, and the breath. Um, but. That's why, because sometimes it, you know, I call it like an in an initiation of sorts because it's like things will crumble.
You'll die and be reborn, but it's the only way to really get to the truth, you know? And so like any other thing is futile. You're just kind of wasting your time. And I've wasted a lot of time, by the way. I'm not, there's no judgment about that. Sometimes it just takes the times that it takes, you know, I've been stuck in fear.
You know, lots of times where, you know, finally I just had to suffer enough until, until I changed. And I think that's okay too. But if you are somebody who you know is scared of the death and rebirth, just go back and listen to a bunch of Hello Universe podcasts [00:37:00] because Kyley and I can like tell you that we've done it a lot of times and live to tell the tale and, and it's been really beautiful.
Ultimately.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. So that's our answer. Yes, you can have both, but you have to be willing to die and it's worth it.
Eva: And yeah. Divest from capitalism and, and, and unlearn all of those things that, um, we've internalized. Okay.
Woo-hoo.
Kyley: I think.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Can I say, sorry, can I say one more thing?
Eva: Yes, please.
Kyley: Okay. All right. One final thing I will say, which I think you, you said in the beginning, but if I had to put a bow on everything, is that. The answer is being not doing. The answer is being overdoing. And um, and when we are in that kind of burnout, hustle side of ambition, that's when we're primarily focused on doing or we think doing will bring us the reward of being. And the answer, the answer is the place where these meet is like being comes first. So if you wanna feel a cer like [00:38:00] however you. When you honor who you are being, like when you honor your current state of being, your current emotions, when you feel like the presence of your fucking feelings now and you like live in integrity to that, that's where everything unlocks because the ma whole fucking magic of the universe is being overdoing and it's been flipped.
And so I think the real answer here, if you have to like sum up everything we've talked about, it's like being first.
Eva: Mm-hmm. And then the doing comes from that, by the way. And I think that's important because as someone who's always like, what am I supposed to do? Because I am obsessed with the doing. Um, I just wanna reassure you that the doing comes. From Really, and it's very clear actually when we get in touch with the being, and that's really nice too.
And sometimes the doing is, let's go take a nap, you know?
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Eva: Okay. Woo hoo. That was fun.
Kyley: That was fun.
I love it.
Eva: Okay. Let's end with, uh, a joy.
Kyley: Okay. You wanna go first? [00:39:00]
Eva: Yeah. I'll go first. I have one that I'm ha that I wanna share with you. Uh, one thing that's bringing me joy right now is. Digging back into some pop culture. Uh, have you heard anything about the new Lily Allen album called, uh, west End Girl?
Okay, so this is just like pop culture at its finest. Lily Allen, she's this like pop singer. She has this new album out called West End Girl and it is all about her divorce with that guy from Stranger Things, David something. Uh, it, anyway, if you guys are Stranger Things fans, what's his name? He's some other famous actor.
And it is like, it's really, it's like storytelling at its finest, but it's also just pure gossip. It's like I'm like listening to the album and like eating popcorn at the same time is how it feels like I'm watching a fucking train wreck happen because she's just spilling the tea on their whole relationship and it is messy a f and it's, and it's like about the [00:40:00] divorce and it's like heartbreaking, all these things, but it's about like their open relationship and how he.
I mean, it is just like, I don't even wanna give it away 'cause I want you to go and listen or you or you know, people listening. If you want something where you're just listening to a bunch of gossip intertwined with like, really, really catchy tunes, go listen to it. Like, I mean, she exposes him as like a sex addict and how like all these different women that he was fucking, and it was, and I'm just like, again, the popcorn, I'm like, oh my God, I can't get enough of this album.
And then there are all these songs that are like, it's so, it's, I, I think there's a lot of mixed feelings about this album. 'cause some people were just like, this is. Harsh. Like she is just tearing him a new asshole. And it is like so public. Um, and some people are like, this is like the anthem for any woman who's ever just, you know, like take, you know, whatever, been with like a sex addict or anybody who's ever just been manipulated by a man.
Um, but I think for me it's been a really wonderful source of inspiration for [00:41:00] storytelling. Like somebody. Just laying it all out there and even, and you know, you're gonna get a lot of slack for it and people are gonna have a lot of pains about it and, and it's really vulnerable. But I'm like power too.
Yes. Si. That's how I
Kyley: Okay. That sounds intriguing. I will have to go listen to that.
I love it. I also love I also love your delight of pop when you get like all just like excited about
Eva: Pop culture.
Kyley: culture. I
Eva: pop culture.
Yes,
Yes, yes. Okay. What's something that's bringing you joy, Kyley?
Kyley: Um, we just got back from Disney World for a week, my kiddos and my husband and I, and it was just like the best. It was so sweet. And I, I, you know, gave Eva a whole play by play before we hit record. But, um, yeah, we just had such a sweet, wonderful. Sweet time as a family and um,
Eva: I mean, you were [00:42:00] beaming when you were telling me about it because it obviously just felt like a really special experience that you got to not just provide for your children, but then also for you guys as a family and you as you and Nick as parents.
Kyley: Yeah, it was really
Eva: a week at Disney World. Like That's a lot.
Kyley: oh, I slept a lot yesterday.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: slept a lot,
um, and like kudos to my kids. One, one day we walked 10 miles. Birdie was like, my feet hurt. Like me too kid.
Um, but like we met a bunch of, we met a bunch of princesses and birdie was just like, just like. Vibrating with happiness and excitement.
And like Desi is at that age where he's like going on adventurous rides, but like, not too, you know, like not, you know, it's like that, that place where you're like starting to go on adult rides, but also you're afraid to go on some, and there was
like one that he like was like kind of crying. We got up to the line and they had all these signs that were like, last call, 50 foot drop.
And Desi starts crying [00:43:00] and he's like, I don't wanna go on. And,
and I was
Eva: Oh my god. I know. I remember those experiences as a kid. They're like, they were like, um, oh, what do you call them? I just feel like that's an important milestone for a kid to have, is what I'm trying to say. Yes.
Kyley: It was also interesting. It very, it was a very affirming trip for my mom, uh, my mom intuition because there was one ride in particular. It was the very first ride we wanted for the whole trip where the whole time we were waiting in line, my eye had felt like so much anxiety and like so much like birdie was a little bit weirded out by the sounds that were playing in the like queue. But I like, I could feel this really intense. Feeling that I later realized with my intuition being like, your kid's gonna fucking hate this. Which he did very, very, very emotional about it. And this is not the first time I've been on a couple of rides with each of my kids where they just fucking hated it.
And it is not fun as a mom when you're like. It's like a special kind of hell. You think of the hell as a kid when [00:44:00] you went on a ride that you weren't ready for. It is a different kind of hell when you're watching your kid just have this horrible experience and you're like, yep. Can't do anything about this.
We
Eva: Yeah. You're like, you're strapped in. Yep.
Kyley: Just gonna keep telling you you're gonna survive.
Um, but like there was like a couple of, like a couple of moments where like I just knew really clearly like there was another, um, is Mount Everest is like a. Fun roller, like really intense roller coaster. And my mom intuition was like, Desi's gonna fucking hate that.
And I love that ride. It's really fun. I was like, Desi's gonna hate this. And so I like met, had Nick go on his own and he came back and he was like, oh yeah, Desi was not, wouldn't have been ready for that. And
so there were like a couple of those moments where like. It was very affirming
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: my mom intuition of like knowing exactly what their level is and so on.
This one, the, the one where Jesse started crying, I was like, no, but for real, you're gonna like this. I
know for real you're gonna like this.
Go on this ride. And like to your point, that kid experience when you're like, wanna be scared and wanna like stay small, and you're like, do the scary
thing, and you're like, oh my God, I did it.[00:45:00]
Eva: Yes. That's like the best feeling in the whole world. I feel like that setting us up for adulthood, you know, like those moments are important. Where I remember that feeling of like, just push yourself and then it's so terrible. But then when you're done, you feel like you're all on top of the world.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: Yeah. You feel like you can, you can take, you can do anything, you
Kyley: Yes. And you're like, oh, that was really, and then I, and then that one, the one that he cried before he went on, I was like, it was, we were doing like a swap. So now it was my turn to go on. I was said, do you wanna go on again? He's like, no, that's okay. No, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it was just like so much fun. We had a great time. It was, I was just like really proud of my family. 'cause it's a lot, it's just, you know it, it's a lot And we just had a really, really, really, really great time and everyone took care of each other and had a lot of fun and it was so sweet and I'm so grateful.
Eva: Yeah, it's gonna be a good core memory.
Kyley: for sure,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right, listeners, thanks so much for tuning in. We love you so much. If you know someone who you think would benefit from this episode, you could share it with [00:46:00] them. Send us a review and we'll see you next week.