Folks are loving this series, “Am I Going Crazy??” because it’s such a relevant, relatable topic on one’s path to self discovery!! Now that we’ve given ourselves full permission to be authentic and believe ourselves in part II, this week in part III of this series we address another concern- what we do about being PERCEIVED as crazy? You’ll hear some very real behind the scenes processing that we decide to leave in the episode because hey, it’s not a real convo about losing our minds if it’s not a little messy, right 😉🤸♂️😘
Folks are loving this series, “Am I Going Crazy??” because it’s such a relevant, relatable topic on one’s path to self discovery!!
Now that we’ve given ourselves full permission to be authentic and believe ourselves in part II, this week in part III of this series we address another concern- what we do about being PERCEIVED as crazy?
You’ll hear some very real behind the scenes processing that we decide to leave in the episode because hey, it’s not a real convo about losing our minds if it’s not a little messy, right 😉🤸♂️😘
ALCHEMY - https://www.kyleycaldwell.com/alchemy
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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Kyley: [00:00:00] welcome to Hello Universe. It's Kylie. Okay. Sorry. I like forgot how to do a normal intro for a second.
Eva: I mean, yeah, you know.
Kyley: It was just like all of our intros, but I, um, I, I'm, I'm standing, I have my standing desk up cause I'm like so amped for this conversation that I like my body's like, no, no, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta wiggle a little bit while we're doing this.
Eva: think that's the intro right there.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: All right, guys, welcome back to the series, the long awaited series. This is part three of Am I Going Crazy? [00:01:00] Kylie's so excited she's gonna fucking burst.
Kyley: Yes, because I think this is, I think we walked ourselves like just to the precipice that is like where, like, I can, like, I can, I can see clearly where my like fears are and like where my edge, the edge that I'm sitting on and, uh, and so I know that you're going to help me move it. And so, you know,
Eva: Oh, that's interesting. That's how I feel. I'm like, I can't wait for you to help me move this shit because this is very much me processing in real time. This conversation, I think it's still like. This is something that I'm still integrating. And I think you've, you're really good at helping me with that, with integrating my own stories about madness.
And so listeners also, like, I share this with you and with like a lot of vulnerability, because this is like very alive for me.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: I care about so deeply.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Same. Same. Um, so if you haven't listened, the first episode, Eva talks about her fears of going [00:02:00] crazy. Second episode, I talk about mine and here, I think we've kind of landed in the place that if we give ourselves full permission to be authentic and to believe ourselves, cause that's ultimately, I think the thing under the thing that we discovered, then we will become our worst nightmare.
Yeah.
Eva: Yes. That's a really, What it is. Yeah. That will become our word. Yes. And I didn't actually put it, think about it that way, but that's exactly what it is. And we become all the things, as you said in our last episode that we judge.
Kyley: Mm hmm. So,
Eva: why do we judge them? Because we have a, like, it's a projection of what we are most afraid of we have in ourselves.
Kyley: yeah. So, so the thing that I know to be true. I can already feel like we're just gonna say this. We're just gonna, we're just gonna say it out there. Don't catch the thing that I know to be true. Is that we are when we commit commit to. Leaning all the way in [00:03:00] to all parts of ourselves. When we commit to leaning all the way into the things that we are resisting, when we let ourselves actually experience what we are afraid of, Allah, ourselves, we remember that we're God and we can create absolutely anything that we want.
And that the shortcut to creating anything and things that are actually beyond our current even imagination of possibility. This is the point. I mean, this is why I'm obsessed with alchemy, right? And this is also why I'm actually afraid to talk about alchemy, which I'll, I'll get into in a minute. Um, alchemy being my, my group program.
Um, Because I, I know it's true. I know that if you turn towards the friction, lean all the way into it, let your, let yourself alchemize that, turn that shit into gold, rise back up to the surface, you, you remove all of the resistance to the thing that you want, and then it's just there. And, [00:04:00] uh, I am terrified to say that out loud because I don't want to get hurt, or what if I believe that and then the universe is like, ha ha, what a fun joke we were playing on you.
I am terrified to say that out loud because I think there's so much toxic shit out there about like manifestation culture and, you know. Think high vibe thoughts and blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. I like to think I have a very nuanced and intensive and transformational spiritual awakening experience. And so I'm not like those coaches.
Um, and I'm really afraid that somebody will believe me and then be like, I didn't get what I asked for. Right.
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: Like I, I, I trusted you for my faith in you for my paycheck and you know, in, in, and, uh, and yeah, and that they'll, they'll, yeah, come at me with pitchforks because they'll experience betrayal.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: So so
Eva: And that's [00:05:00] something to unpack too, which you, you, you pointed out to me one time when I was saying, like, sometimes I feel like worried about like this, my, anyway, you, you pointed out to me that there was like a codependency there, right? Being this like, like a codependency of like clients, I'm responsible, like for what my clients, I'm responsible.
It's like being responsible for a parent or someone's sick or like, I'm, I'm responsible. Like are you feeling responsible for your client? Like for these people to get these results that I so firmly believe in. Just a quick plug on that, which is just like, just to look at that. I don't, I don't think, I don't even know if we need to get into that, but just maybe just to look into that.
Right, right,
Kyley: of ways in which I've unhooked from that. So, you know, I mean, it's a lot of ways that I've unhooked from that, but what I can see what I've, and I've seen this for a little while is that I'm, I'm, um, I'm pulling my punches on the impact of what it is that I actually do. [00:06:00] And I am like, Almost like, um, it could not letting people in on the secret of what it is that I actually like what I actually know is possible if you come and like step into my space, because I'm trying to protect myself from that experience, meaning. I've previously had experiences where someone comes to me and, you know, okay, we'll use a business coaching example.
Someone comes to me and they're like, okay, I want to like put my job and I want to make a bunch of money. And I feel the weight of, I have to make this happen for you. And that I have really unhooked from in the sense that I'm like, yeah, your journey is your journey. And sometimes slow is fast. And like, And we're just going to love what is right.
And so, so much of my work is about, yeah, loving what is, and that being the kind of internal transformation that we want. Right. And I feel very confident in that. But the secret that apparently I'm letting out of the bag in this podcast is that that internal transformation [00:07:00] is the only path to the external transformation that you actually want.
If you comment in my space, if you trust me, if I let you trust me, then I'll show you how to let the internal internal transformation be the portal to the external transformation. But that's measurable, right? Like that's a like, in my, in my like, fear is like, That's a like pass fail. And you can be like, but it didn't happen. Um, and so anyways, the, the codependence there is like, I'm like, I'm like swallowing what I know to be true. And like, if, if you get, if you get close enough, I'll let you in on the secret kind of, but I don't, like, I, I don't want to just tell people, like, Oh, like basically it's complicated. But so for example, I'll use alchemy as an example.
Alchemy is a course about healing, right? It is a journey about healing your relationship with life, with love, with safety, with [00:08:00] money. It is also a course that like, ah, see, I don't want to say it. I don't want to say it right
Eva: the sign that you should say it. Yeah. It'll be good for you.
Kyley: You know, it would be very, you know, it would be very straightforward marketing and like a nice thing that people would understand.
Alchemy makes you money,
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: Like, oh, it makes you money. I'll show you how this is it. This is the journey. The journey is this nuanced spiritual evolution, but the top line is like, yeah, alchemy makes you money, but in part by helping you disconnect from the way in which you think you need it, blah, blah, blah. It's true. But I don't want to tell you that because I don't want you to be disappointed. I don't want to be, I don't want to be held accountable if I don't deliver. So I, um, I hide. And I, um, I'm in it and I'm, I'm sharing all this now, one, cause I'm like in the middle of this alchemy launch, but also because it feels directly tied to everything that we're talking about.
Right. Of just like, [00:09:00] um, I don't want to believe myself all the way and I don't want to let you believe me all the way because
Eva: then I'll be responsible? Is that what you mean? Yeah, help me understand this connection here.
Kyley: yeah, I mean, maybe you'll have, maybe you can help me, but I don't think it's that I'll be responsible. I think it's that, uh,
Eva: What if it doesn't work and therefore my, it pokes a hole in my beliefs? Like, that's another thing I've thought before.
Kyley: yes, I've had that before. Yeah. What if it fail it's, but it's, I've had that plenty of times before. Um, it's like, what if it fails? I know I'm cast out of love. It's like, it's back to that, right? What if I, what if I stand up there unvarnished, like Lady Godiva naked on the horse giddy up, let's go. And. Y'all see that I'm a fucking crazy lady on a horse, or worse, actually worse, you get on your horses,
Eva: Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: you like run after me [00:10:00] and I'm actually running a straight off a fucking cliff.
Eva: Yes. Okay. Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. So I go even more intense because I'm like, I'm like, that's what a cult leader is. Like, that's where my mind
Kyley: Oh yeah,
Eva: like when I think of losing my mind, I think of people who are fucking, who love cults. Kylie's
Kyley: because I'm jumping up and down.
Eva: I had no idea that the mention of cult leaders would make you dance and make you so happy.
But yeah, like that is the ultimate, when I think of losing your goddamn mind, it's like, you're so deeply entrenched in like the, whatever the mystical philosophical or like spiritual shit that you just like. And there's like some crazy wackadoo leader who's telling you to drink this fucking Kool Aid and like, they're literally, you are people, you're taking them off a cliff.
And so, um, I don't know, I just wanted to share another image of like what I think when I think of insanity.
Kyley: Because that is my fear. My fear is not that I will follow the cult leader. My fear, it's why I did a dance because I'm actually, I am so afraid that I'm the cult
Eva: I'm the Kool Aid. Yes, exactly. So let's, let's like, I just want to take a moment to [00:11:00] name something here. It's one thing to be on your spiritual journey and have these mystical experiences or like explore consciousness and like live in a, you know, in contrast with how the majority of people live or whatever.
But it's another thing then to try and teach that, like share that and teach that and mentor people with that. It's like, then I'm like spreading this gospel, you know, and that's a whole nother thing because what you're saying is I need to like believe in this so much that I'm willing to take others along with me.
And that's scary.
Kyley: and the reality is that I do. And that's what scares me. It's not like to the point of like, it's not that I, it's not that I'm afraid to believe, although yes I am, but it's that I do believe myself that much. And it scares the shit out of me. So I try to, I try to muzzle how much I actually, I try to muzzle what I already know. Does that make sense?[00:12:00]
Eva: I, and I, and I experienced a version of this too. I mean,
Kyley: Also, everybody, wouldn't I be a fun cult leader? I mean,
Eva: you would be a very fun. I mean, I would sign up for that cult because
Kyley: I think we would have a great time, you know,
Eva: um, my, so I've experienced this before, but my experience is always like, I'm just leading people to more love. And so I, I don't think I have that fear so much that I'm going to lead people off a cliff because I'm like, I just feel I'm take everything that I'm saying with a grain of salt because of course there's also I question myself and there's also the same doubts but like I think I feel like my stakes don't feel I don't feel like I'm leading people off a cliff because I'm like I'm just leading you to love and I know that that's like the answer so so it doesn't you know what I'm saying so it doesn't feel like I'm there's something like Dangerous or scary there [00:13:00] are not to say that your work is like dangerous or scary or maybe it is dangerous and scary like in the best way.
Who knows? Um, I don't know where I'm going with this
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think what you're pointing to is
Eva: because you're also leading people to love by the way. So, you know, at the end, that's all it ever leads to.
Kyley: a thousand percent alchemy is a course about how to experience unconditional love and none of us know how and I have I have one path that is that is what it is a course of the thing is that I believe the more deeply we commit to experiencing unconditional love, the more we create access to the kind of power that remakes the external world that like that we are not just The conduits of miracles, but the creators, like the birthplace of, of the miraculous, right?
Uh, that, I mean, honestly, Oh my God, I can't believe I'm saying this all out loud. Like I'm just watching my body is like, we're doing this, huh? This we're doing this, but like, I [00:14:00] look at like the ocean and how much plastic is in the ocean. And, or I look at the earth and how like toxic our extraction of the earth is and how like we actually pay attention.
We're on like a fast track to destruction. And. The knowing inside of me is wild watching how much my body is like, what are you doing? Um, the knowing inside of me is that this, this, this, mean, when I keep calling alchemy because that's just my practice, that's my particular practice of magic and trans and transcendence and transformation is, um, is the way that we unlock the kinds of things where we're like, Oh, we just healed the earth with our hands.
Like it's, it's new now. Right. Like. The kind of, the kind of, the kind of miracles that we actually need on a collective, please know that every 30 seconds, my [00:15:00] insides are screaming that I'm saying all this out loud. I'm just going to stop saying that, but just assume that that's happening all time in the background.
Um, but, uh, I, I, I know to be true that we have all of this bullshit conditioning creates for us experiences that we are separate from love and that we. Do not have access to power and impact and I think it's all a lie, not even in some crazy conspiracy theory, but like, I just like that is not actually, that is not the, you know, the question you always say, like, is it true?
Like, it's not true. We, and we have power beyond our wildest imagination and not just the power to be like, Oh, I got a, I want, I want a red car. And so I'm going to just think about red cars. And then I got one, although that can be a fun game. Like I'm not even interested in making [00:16:00] that wrong, but like, I actually think we have the kind of power that, Like,
that's a fucking revolution. And I think the way we do it is the return to love and allowing the return to love to also be a return to our particular, uh, flow of being creator. Um, and yeah, so that's, that's what I, that's what I believe. And I don't want to tell you all that. Cause then you can tell me that it's not happening.
And so
Eva: or that you're, or, or being on theme with the podcast that you're crazy, that, that, that, that, that, that's nuts.
Kyley: that's, that that's not.
Eva: Um,
Kyley: And harmful because I told y'all to believe me. And now we're towards a bunch of rocks at the bottom of the Oh,
Eva: know if this is an oversimplification, but to me, I'm just like, Oh, well, this is just really simple. And [00:17:00] the answer is simple is that, um, we just keep living what we know we keep living our truth. And I, yeah, we just keep living our truth and we experience it. it's. It comes not from a logical, knowledge based place, but it's experiential. And that's all that matters. Like, then we just, and then we share from that. And what I guess what I'm trying to say is, what do we do about this? We don't, that's it. Is there anything else?
Kyley: okay.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: Cause what I'm watching is that there's two parts. There's this part that's like, we can't let anyone know that this is what we know. I can't for all these reasons that I've expressed, but then there's this other part of me who is like, Will you get on with it? Like we have shit to do and why are you wasting time pretending that this is [00:18:00] not the thing that you know to be true, both internally, from my own experience, my own access to being creator of God, but then also as cult leader.
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: Um, and so yes, To the answer to the part of me who's like, but I'm scared is like, yeah, I do just be where you are. It's cool. And then what immediately comes up is this other part who is like giddy fucking
Eva: yeah. Let's fucking go. Yeah.
Kyley: on fire. Shit is bad in ways it does not need to be bad. We have medicine like get on with it.
That has that, that aspect of me has obviously a lot of like power and confidence and also a tremendous amount of like, there's a kind of weaponized, like, like there's an inner critic that's harsh there. That's like, it's just mad at the me who's afraid and dragging her heels. Yeah.
Eva: I mean, I think you just like, you just pointed at it, which is [00:19:00] to integrate both. I mean, the, the part that's like giddy up, let's go, I think is louder. And I mean, you basically, you just said it at the beginning of this. What did you say? Oh no, we, you said, you said this to me before we even started recording, which is to love our part, love the parts of us that are scared. And I think when you do that, yeah, I mean, it sounds so simple, but it's like loving the parts of you that are scared and giving you that, that herself, that's face. That's the thing that gets you unstuck. I think.
Kyley: I think it's also letting the me who's mad be fucking mad,
Eva: Yeah. It's all of it. It's like letting all of these characters of parts of you have their life.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um,
Kyley: Yeah. It's funny. Cause this is intellectually a conversation that we've had many times. And I, and I am to the point we've been talking about it, like being at home in your body is the knowing that makes all this shit safe.
Eva: yeah, I
Kyley: my body is like, we have peeling the lid off something. [00:20:00] Big. So we have had a version of the conversation.
I've even said things like this on the show before. Right. And, and, and I also have the knowing that something is, some lid is being peeled off that has been really hungry to be peeled off for a while, because. I'm just watching my body like react. And I'm also like, Hey, your turn, your turn. You tell us what's going on with you. We're we're all done here. I
Eva: I cannot wait to dive in, but I think I do have one more question for you. It's like, so we ended the last episode, part two of this episode of being like, part of the way the solution is to, I think I wrote this down, like part of the problem is that we're afraid of being the thing that we judge, right?
Um, and the solution is to lean into it, to just like, let's, let's fucking go giddy up. Let's, let's just lean into, we have to be willing to be the thing that we, Hate. I think we actually have to be willing to be, or at least perceived, we have to be [00:21:00] willing to be perceived as the thing that we resist so much.
So for you,
Kyley: said it right the first time. I think in some ways we have to be willing to be the thing we hate. Yeah.
Eva: too. But I think that can sound, you can distort that. Like someone could take that out of, I could see how that could be like, cause it could be perceived as like, okay, so you're saying this person's a phony. So you're going to lean into being a phony. Like that's not really what I mean, but it's like, but so that's my question to you.
What is it that you hate? What are you afraid of becoming?
Kyley: Yeah. Okay. I have
Eva: brimmed
Kyley: There's some beautiful human who is a manifestation coach and has a white room hat and I am sorry who's listening right now and I am
Eva: I have, I have friends who have wide brimmed hats. Hopefully you have a sense of humor, you know, you know, you get it.
Kyley: Yeah. Um, yeah. Um,
Eva: Oh yeah, this is, this is the important question for both of us. What are we both afraid of becoming?
Kyley: yeah, [00:22:00] I, I think there are some harmful fucking grifters out there that are using. Spiritual principles to exploit and extract on the promise that you will make money. And they are actually doing, not only are you not getting the promise, but they are actually also doing real harm because they are separating you from love because they are reinforcing this idea that you.
Need these things outside of you, that you are a broken thing, that your anger and grief and resentment are wrong. And you just need to lock yourself into this emotional box of, you know, high vibe that your thoughts create your reality, which is fucking bullshit. Your thoughts are the weather, your subconscious, your emotions, your body.
That's where you are. That's where your power lives. Your thoughts are, they're like the puff of dandelions, right? So you're [00:23:00] never going to fucking manifest anything from your thoughts because they are like meaningless, right? They are meaningless.
Eva: maybe I'm going off topic. This is a tangent, but also part of me, it's also like, but your thoughts also do create your reality. On one hand, I'm also like, I have seen so fucking clearly like the power of my mind and what it can create both beautiful and horrific. But, but, but I hear what you're saying.
It also goes deeper than that. It's not just like, you know, it's not, yeah, it's not like the, it's not the surface level, like just control your thoughts and you'll like control everything. Yeah.
Kyley: right. And I think you're right. I mean, you're right. Our, like we were just saying in the last episode, like you're suffering, suffering is created in the mind. Right? So a thousand percent, uh, everything's paradox and our, our mind, our mind is our lens, right? It's like, it's our, the prescription of my glasses and we aren't creator God from our thoughts, right?
If you want to
Eva: thoughts are very, are limited. Yes.
Kyley: Right? Like you want to like, you want to be [00:24:00] creator. That's not, that's your body. That's your heart. That is the depths of your being. That's not you chanting over and over again. You know, I make 10, 000. A month, right? Um, you could say that phrase, watch your body's response, sit in the edge of discomfort, watch it alchemize, rise back up, right?
Like anyway, but I, I think that there is, it's not just the broken promise. This is that I get mad about. And then I'm afraid of people seeing me as not just the broken promise of like, Oh, I keep throwing money at these manifestation coaches and I'm not, and I'm, and now I'm going to have to declare bankruptcy, right?
It's that I think these broken promises of You know, essentially capitalism's co option of spiritual lingo separates us from ourselves.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: It fails to deliver the initial promise, but it also causes the harm of [00:25:00] like further dividing you from you.
Eva: Right. So, so to stay on this topic though, it's like, what are you afraid of becoming? So that's your answer. That's
Kyley: Yeah. That I don't want, I don't want people, I don't want people to see me and say you're a liar. Cause you're one, you're one of them
Eva: Yeah. Okay. And this is like, I know this is the oversimplification, but also sometimes oversimplification, oversimplification can be good. But like, if you were to ask yourself, like, really honestly, like, do you do that? Do you do that?
Kyley: The inintegrity answer is I don't know,
Eva: Oh, I like that.
Kyley: right? And maybe this goes back to the last episode where I was saying, like, I'm, does my belief make me crazy? Like, am I the cult leader? Right. Because, because I have let this practice reshape my experiences in the world over [00:26:00] and over and over again. And I don't know if it works for everybody, even as I'm saying that I'm like, it does, but, but, um,
Eva: No, but it's not about, does it work for everybody? I'm asking you, do you, are you grift, are you grifter who's separating people from themselves? Mm hmm. Okay,
Kyley: I could be because there are places that I don't know I'm still separate from myself. Right. So in the same way that like my son's hyperactivity can be really triggering for me because that's a place of separation inside of me, right? I have bagged on my own hyperactivity. So his causes me to get all, uh, there are undiscovered parts of myself where I am still separate from myself.
And so where I am, where I am teacher in those spaces, I could unintact, but I could unintentionally be causing harm. [00:27:00] I don't know. Mm hmm.
Eva: you are blowing my mind. This whole next part I can tell it's giving me like the heebie jeebies.
Kyley: am I crazy? The heebie jeebies episode.
Eva: yes. But what this is actually giving me is a lot of empathy.
and compassion for people who are perceived as grifters. Because how I really see it is, I actually think that nobody is intentionally doing harm. I don't know if that's maybe naive, but meaning like I've hired coaches before, my first, who like fucked me up. And like, it was not a good experience and I had to spend years, like, undoing a lot of what she taught me. And she was just acting from the, and like looking, and for a long time I had this blame story of like, Oh, whatever. She's out of integrity, blah, blah, blah. But, but I've also had this voice come in going like, no, I don't think she was out of integrity. I think she was teaching from the level of consciousness that she had and it was actually [00:28:00] innocent.
And, and what if no one out there is actually. Like, the people that I judge meaning, meaning the people who I am so afraid of becoming and I'm judging them. I'm like, you're a fake, you're a phony, you're a fraud, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're a cult leader. You're going to lift, you're going to like lead people off this cliff. I don't know. It's like, I don't know what, it's like hard to say. It's like, maybe I'm confused because I'm like, their actions have caused harm, also what if they were just acting from the level of consciousness that they had available to them? And that's like all that we can ever do. And that's it.
Like,
Kyley: Mm-Hmm.
Eva: because otherwise what you're saying is like to act, wait until we're at perfect perfection.
Kyley: Yeah. Right.
Eva: Like we're, we're perfect. Cause that's, that's also another trap that we get into is like, Hey, well I have to like really have all of this 100 percent figured out before I can ever share anything.
Kyley: [00:29:00] Mm-Hmm.
Eva: And I guess what I'm trying to say is like, when it's something that I've noticed.
Is that once I have like real, when I see these people more clearly, the people who I judge, I realize that, I don't know, there's almost like something, I don't, there's something not to be afraid of because, and I've done like the work around it, but the Byron Katie, the work where I like had this whole judgment about them.
And I was like, wait a second, like they're not doing anything wrong. They're just doing like the best that they can. And I'm over here judging them. Like I'm the problem, not them. I'm the
Kyley: Oh, that's fascinating.
Eva: And I think, and like, if I have that compassion for others, I think what if that's the answer for ourselves?
Because what you're saying is really honest. I love, cause like, I've been asked that question before, like, are you scamming people? And I really, when I checked in with myself, I was like, no, like I'm not scamming people. But your answer, there's like a, an even deeper level of honesty there of just like, I don't know.
I really don't know. Like, I really don't know. [00:30:00] And I'm like, oh, that's, if, what if that's, what if it means, you Don't know. It's a really scary thing to say, but it's like, what if we just act? Yeah. Do you know where I'm kind of going with this? Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: do, I do. I do. And um, and what I also hear you saying is like, yeah, what if it's okay that you're acting from the level of consciousness that you have? I think. It's interesting because I'm watching some sense of like, well, then don't make bold claims. So that's interesting to watch. Like, don't make bold, essentially, because I'm pretty good at showing up messy, right?
Like that's kind of my whole brand. And what I'm watching is not that I don't show up. It's that I don't, there's a part of me that's like, just keep showing up, but don't make any bold claims because Then people are going to ask for receipts. Um, but, but I think, um, meaning, I think I'm just [00:31:00] bumping up to the limb to where my limit is of compassion. Like, yeah, well, you're doing the best you can and that's, and your best is enough. Right. It's like, I think I just found where my edge for that, like the edge for that compassion is, um, there's some interesting thing that I, I can't quite make sense of that's happening. Cause I, I don't think you're wrong. My first business coach, I'm pretty sure was a narcissist. And, um, And like, was both really helpful and like, isn't a good coach, like, right. Like, uh, it was exactly what I needed in the moment.
And what I was really investing in was me, right. That, that, that five grand that I sent her was my like bid that like, I was willing to believe in myself that I was putting my chip to the table for me. Um, and, and so it was okay. All the ways in which she was exhausting and like, you know, um, whatnot. And, [00:32:00] and like continues like every, I, you know, when I see her online, I sometimes I'm really triggered and I'm like, well, this is you, this is useful, right?
This is showing me something. Um, so like her, her being the coach from the level of consciousness that she is actually served me both in the ways in which she was a good coach and also in the ways that I think that she wasn't that, that was also for me. So I think you're right. And I can feel this like anger and it, it somehow feels connected to the part of me who's like, We got shit to do, like get on with it.
Kyley: It's this primal scream. This part of me that is, you are letting the world believe in all these other people and they're fake and they're not wrong. In their fakeness, right? They're not,
Eva: you are letting the world, I mean, these people who are fake are letting the people
Kyley: no, sorry. You, so it's me yelling at me.
Eva: Oh, okay.
Kyley: primal scream is me yelling at me saying in [00:33:00] your, in Kylie, in your refusal to say, say what you know to be true without the fucking caveats and the masks and the hiding, or just being out there, like, this is what I have. And this is what it will do. Um, get on your horse.
I am letting the world continue to invest in the charlatans.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: And so this part of me is angry at them because I'm letting them cause harm, right? By continuing to keep my space like the best kept secret, right? Then I'm letting these other people be the space holders where everyone's flocking to and listening to.
And then I'm saying, Whoa, like, Oh, I don't want to be like one of them. And it's like, well, then you're not. So go be you and actually peel off the mask and let people flock to you because then you could give them what you have, but you're not. Like, in your fear, you are, you are maybe not being that person, but you are allowing that [00:34:00] person to be you.
To take up all the fucking space in the room. So take up your own damn space.
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: Oh, okay. I feel uncomfortable.
Eva: It's about descent into madness, but where we experience that often is like in our business.
Kyley: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Eva: but I, but when we talk about it in these terms, I start to feel like, okay, is this the conversation that, um, like, it doesn't feel like I'm doing the thing where I'm defaulting to what other people think.
It doesn't feel like that.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, is this, I think what you're saying is like, is this too narrow a lens to be relevant to the scope, like the big scope of our audience?
Eva: Yeah. And, and the scope of this topic.
Kyley: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Eva: And I'm not, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I'm not saying like there's a, there's a, there's a right or a wrong. Cause you also just said it. I think it's actually really clear. It's not really about your business. It's about like, this is about your life. Like this is about living your life. It just shows up in your [00:35:00] business this way. And I think we could just name that.
Kyley: Yeah. Right. Well, and I think it's interesting because I'm, what I'm, what I'm watching now is are there places where I'm afraid about, like this fear, does it exist anywhere outside of my business? Does it exist anywhere outside of, like, public Kylie?
Eva: Oh, that's interesting.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I mean, are you saying that maybe it doesn't? Because actually it's so funny because even that's, cause when you put it that way, I'm like, oh yeah, this sphere shows up for us and like in our business for both of us, which is true in my case. But also now that I think about it, no, it's like, it's not my business. It's it's in my life.
Kyley: Yeah. Right. I could walk away from this conversation. Yeah. I could walk away from this conversation and think of a million examples because nothing's really black and white, but I am having a hard time imagining a place where this shows up that's not about essentially external [00:36:00] Kylie and her like sacred work in the world.
Eva: Oh, interesting. Wow. That's, that's a good, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe good and bad aren't labels. And I'm like, oh, well that sounds fortunate because it's not at least in every like part of your life, which is how I experienced it. Like, I don't want, I'm not really thinking about, I mean, yes, work is part of it.
It's the part where I started talking about it publicly, but like my descent into madness isn't about my job. It's about my mind. Like what I'm afraid of my descent into madness is actually being a crazy person. Not that I, not like, like, I'm afraid that I'm going to do like ayahuasca and have all these like, whatever, whatever, ayahuasca is just one example.
And I will move through the world as someone who is detached from reality.
Kyley: I think in some ways this feels like maybe the central distinction between how we experience this. Right. Cause yours is essentially, if, if I continue falling in, I will somehow [00:37:00] remove myself from reality. Right. I will. Yeah. My, my math, it's almost actually almost like your madness is like this, uh, like the fear of magic, but it will like sever me from things.
Things or separate me from things.
Eva: Yes, that too. Yeah. Yes. But it's, yeah, it is. And it's also like my, my like movement in mass, it has nothing to do with like my job. I mean, yes, my job was part of it, but it's like really for me, it's, it's about my spiritual experience. That I know that, and this is, anyway, now I'm like, it's like, I know that I am not Eva, that Eva, I am actually consciousness and awareness itself. But living that way
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: what the fuck are you talking about? Of course you're Eva. Like, well, I'm like, no, I'm like, anyway, so,
Kyley: Oh, don't. Anyway, I think this is the whole fucking juice right here. Yes. Because I think we're talking about two different sides of the same of the coin. And I also think we're speaking to, you know, we spoke about in the [00:38:00] first episode in the series that under this crazy fear is like the desire to be authentic.
Our authentic kind of creator self consciousness, our particular red of the conscious that runs through us, even as it's all of consciousness. I also experienced that there's like a flavor, there's a particular medicine to it, right? There's a flavor to it. And, um, and you know, that if we mask if we, you know, If we pull back, we're also like rescinding how much medicine gets to come forward for the collective.
Right. For all of us. And, and I think what, what I'm, what I'm, and this isn't about like work, like business, but like you as the beingness of Eva in the world is this like sacred, the beingness of even in the world is this sacred felt sense of presence and connectedness and. Everything is love and you, and, [00:39:00] and, and this consciousness. And I think that the beingness of each of us is slightly different, like has a slightly different flavor to it,
Eva: sure. And I love that. It's like the assignments. Cause like your flavor, right? I mean, like, yes. I think you have a flavor of like,
Kyley: cult leader.
Eva: Well, also power, but power is a word that comes up that I love that you is like a word that I associate with you because
Kyley: so that's what I'm afraid of. That's my craziness.
Eva: Yes. I think you hold it so responsibly, but that's why I trust you anyway, but, but yes, yes, it's true. Like we all, we all have our different flavors.
Wait, so what I'm confused about is what are we, is this, are we still in the timeout?
Kyley: I think, I think this is just the episode.
Eva: Yes. Yes.
Kyley: you hate that?
Eva: Wait, no, an
Kyley: how could we not have [00:40:00] an episode? How could we not have at least one crazy episode that's actually like substantively chaotic and totally unhinged? I mean,
Eva: oh my God, I guess that makes, I mean, it's very fitting, but like my like, Capricorn side, it's like, no, it's like not clean and this isn't going to make sense, but I guess it's very on brand for what we were talking about. Um,
Kyley: I'm biased. My favorite things are like getting to see behind the scenes of people real time processing shit, right? I think that's, I think that's, if I were a listener, I would be much more interested in our, my favorite part would be the like, wait, timeout conversation.
Eva: all right, let's do it. Listeners. This is, yeah, as you can, this is it, this is us figuring it out and actually it feels pretty good.
Kyley: Mm hmm. In some ways, I think what we're touching on is that like the fear, the fear of going crazy is actually revealing to us not only what we most [00:41:00] want, but what we most are.
Eva: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
Kyley: And so I'm wondering what happens if Eva like fully surrenders to, Oh, I'm not Eva.
Eva: Well, I actually think this is my whole spiritual practice. Like that's, I think it's surrendering to it. I think I'm trying. Um, and then I get scared and I get pulled back, but, but, but that is the path.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, I guess what I'm wanting, I think what I'm poking at is the crazy concern is the fear of what will happen. I mean, I guess you could hold even more space for like, as we were getting more clarity, like what is, what is in that fear? Right. If you were like, if you were totally immersed in, Oh, I am Eva and I am not Eva.
Like what is the, is there even [00:42:00] more clarity around what the fear is? And then also what's the possibility.
Eva: Okay. Well, I think I've already touched into the fear. I think I've, so my recent, so recent experiences, well, actually not even recent. I feel like every sort of big like profound experience has taught me the same thing, which is that, um, I've had experiences where I thought that if I, I, I think what, I think what we all are is consciousness. And we're all, that's what people mean when we say we're all one, we're actually just all, we're all just one consciousness and we're all, that's what it means when we're like all connected. And, but I've had moments of where I have like just crazy mystical moments where I've like gotten really close and touched into that and I freaked the fuck out and I pulled back and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, it's not safe because if I go there, I'm going to lose everything and everyone that I love.
That was the fear. And I'm, I feel like I've talked about this on the podcast before, like [00:43:00] that was the story that came up. Um, and actually, that was like. what I previously thought. And I've had other experiences that have shown me one, to have compassion for myself, for the part of me that wasn't ready yet to step into the all, the isness, the everything.
I've had like compassion for that, which was really helpful. I just like, wasn't ready at the time. And then Later on when I've had moments of like, okay, like we're here again. It's time to experience. I think what it is that you're hungry to experience Really what I found was again love meaning I thought I was going to I don't even know if this language makes sense but it's like I thought I would step into Letting go of who I am And I'd have to let go of everything that I loved and I thought it was going to be scary, but actually when I let go of everything that I was, I, all I experienced was like safety and love and wholeness. And I was like, and I looked up again and [00:44:00] I was like, I looked my fear directly in the fucking eyes and then it just dispersed.
My fear just dispersed because I saw it had like, like you've said before, like it had no legs to stand on, but I didn't see that until I looked at my fear directly in the fucking eye and said, Oh, I'm a, I'm afraid of losing myself completely. And then I let myself let go. And then what I saw was, I let go, and I was like, oh, and here I am again.
Like, it's not this otherworldly, other dimension thing where I'm like, yes, I don't know, but again, detached from reality, I'm actually more, I'm more firmly rooted in reality. If anything, I thought I was going to be detached, but actually I'm more connected. That's been my experience, which I think, um, that's why I think I wanted to have a conversation specifically about like, what's changing for me, what's been helpful for me. Like my, I, I was so previously afraid of like a descent into madness that I couldn't even talk about it on the podcast because it felt too sensitive to me.
[00:45:00] And now I've come to this place where I'm like, you helped me see this and you said this just recently. And I was like, Oh my God, you're so right. I think I've had the story for so long that I'm afraid of losing my mind. I'm afraid of going crazy. And you said Eva. You love the process of going crazy. Like you love losing your mind.
And I was like, Holy shit, I do. Like I've had this story that I'm like this scared little thing and maybe that was because that was there one time, but I've been doing this for a while now where I'm like, and again, just that reframing was so helpful. I'm like, obviously I must fucking love this shit because I just keep going.
I just keep going and going and I'm curious and I'm hungry and, and I think I do love it. I, and I'm starting to get to a place where I don't think I have to be afraid anymore. That's not to say that I'm not going to have fear, but, but again, having this conversation.
Kyley: of the fear,
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, and I can talk about it because I'm like, Oh, I see what's happening.
Like this isn't [00:46:00] something to be avoided. This is something to be really looked at. And I think if I continue to look at it square in the eyes, I'm just going to see that it's just going to laugh and be like, ha ha, there's nothing to be afraid of. Like maybe a little bit of a trickster energy, but that's actually just completely love.
Kyley: All the tricks are like, yeah. What do you think we are?
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Um, I. Yeah, like the sneak reveal. I'm getting, I'm getting the image of, um, like Scooby Doo, where they pull the mask off. But instead of it being like the cranky old man, it's like you pull the mask off the monster and it's like, hi,
Eva: Yes. Yes. And it's laughing and smiling at you. And um, yeah, so, so I think though, like that, those experiences, I guess what I'm trying to say is like being able to not look at it when I wasn't ready was helpful. Like, like if you ever have an experience where you feel like you're being called into some like weird mystical place [00:47:00] and, and, and you're like, your whole body is saying like, no, like, that's okay.
Like, listen to that. And you'll, and then, and then, but there's, there will be a time where you're resourced for it, or you're just like in the right time, in the right place with the right people or whatever. And it doesn't, it could just be like you in nature, who knows, you'll have an experience where like, where you can drop into like deep connection with God.
And, um, there is fear there, that's like when you're ready to look at that fear. And, um, I have seen Which is that me going crazy is actually me becoming more sane. Like, that's, that's I think one thing that's been really helpful when, like, to our listeners questioned about like, what do you, what do you do about being perceived as crazy?
Well, first I have to make peace with the fact that I'm crazy. And I, but what helps me make peace with that [00:48:00] is the paradox of like, no, we live in an, in an insane fucking world. And, It would be fun for me to list out the millions of ways that like, I could, in everyday life that things that we take for granted, things that are just normalized, that are actually fucking insane about our society and our culture.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: And then, and then, so basically by living against the grain of that insanity, we are becoming more sane, but it's going to be perceived as insane by the mass population who are living in an insane way.
Kyley: And I think the places where the perception of insanity stings is just, Mm hmm. That's the fear. That's the Scooby Doo, you know, monster, meaning the perception of being insane or the projection of other people can only hurt in the places where we already have a wound. Right. [00:49:00] Meaning
Eva: Yes, I agree.
Kyley: the, the whole thing I shared about, right. Being afraid of being the, like the, the cult leader is because I have some deep anxiety I have, you know, unearthed on this episode. Um, That I'll do harm with my, you know, big beliefs and magic. And if I tend to, and love on that concern, then I arrive at the place where someone could come along and say, you're like, you're a phony, you're a fraud, you cause harm and it will, it will just wash off of me because it will be so clear how much that is only their projection and for them to process.
And it, it will just have no place to land. And if it lands. We're not wrong. It just means that that's a place where you need to give yourself some compassion. [00:50:00] Hmm.
Eva: I think there's also as also there's a complete room for and I think this is something that I'm learning there's there's a room for what I did was wrong. Like someone could say, Oh, like you were a fraud and it felt and it felt fraudulent when you did that and I can look within myself and see.
Is there truth to that? When I did that thing, was I actually fraudulent? And my answer might be, I didn't intend it to be that way, but the impact was different. And I was like, Oh, you know what? You were right. And I, let me make amends. And I'm sorry, because biggest, because it goes back to this perfection piece of like, well, what you're saying is like, like, if we're, if we're going to get to a place where we're feel like we are.
never causing harm. We have to wait until we die. We have to wait until we die because it's perfectionism and we're never going to fucking get there. I think it's more like, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it's actually like, I think the more honest, authentic thing to allow ourselves to be like, [00:51:00] I'm, I may cause harm and I'm sorry.
And it's, it's not intentional, but it doesn't, it also doesn't mean you're a bad fucking person. It means that I'm not perfect. And I'm, I'm, I think to be a human. Is to cause harm. But what I have seen in my like teachers that has been so helpful for me and like Byron Katie. Oh, my God. It's like they will really look inside themselves and be like, where are you right?
Like, where was I the perpetrator? And you say, I am. I'm sorry. And I did this wrong. I've seen this with the Pasana, like the Goenka teacher. I mean, he talks about how like he made these mistakes when he first started and, you know, meditation and it's like, And he was just wrong. And also, sorry, sorry, I'm like on a tear here, but also the whole thing about being wrong is really a lot easier when you're not attached to ego and the story of you of like, so identified.
It's like there's humility. There's like real humility. And that is what connects us with people.[00:52:00]
Kyley: You said when we started this series was that your fear of being crazy, your fear of being crazy had to do with your language wasn't causing harm, but it was essentially that I'll be dangerous to other people. Right. And, and then that's also been my fear again, slightly different actions, but the fear who fucking knew perhaps under, for all of us, our fear of going crazy perhaps has to do with that.
We will somehow that there's somehow in being our true self, right? Cause that seems like one thing we've unearthed is that under the fear of being crazy is the fear that it has to do with like, can I actually just be who I know myself to be? Is that inherently dangerous? And also, if I do that, will I cause harm?
And what I'm hearing you put forward is maybe, but that doesn't [00:53:00] have to mean we're cast out of love.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Like, will I cause harm? Yes. Like, will I cause harm? Like, let's just be like, like me. I think that's actually a more honest answer. Yes. Yes, because I think. I'm inherently flawed, like as a person. And I, and that doesn't mean I'm, that I'm bad, you know, like I say that with love. Um, and that's actually where my perfection is.
The fact that I'm inherently flawed. You know, will I cause harm? Yes. But also that is so much easier to let in when there's no self condemnation. And my, when my story isn't that I'm a piece of shit or, you know, my stories are like, I'm, my stories of badness are loud and you know, I'm a piece of shit. I'm bad.
I'm unlovable. I'm untrustworthy. It's like, I think that's where the practice is of like, I. I can, I can admit actually that I've caused harm when there's no shame. Like that's actually what's so awesome is like, and I, it's been really powerful for me to see that in my, some of my teachers who are like, there's no self condemnation, there's so much Mm [00:54:00] hmm.
Kyley: Yeah. Because you don't have to, when we are,
when we are, when we are in the place where we believe ourselves unworthy of love, right. And undeserving of love. Um, an unlovable actually like all the way down, right? When we, when we, when we are in the place where we believe that we are unlovable, we have to like viciously deny and slash our, right? Like.
We, we have no room for accountability because we're like gasping for air, right? We're like, just desperate to survive in that place. And either when there's no shame or when we have a Brene Brown call shame resilience, when we have some capacity to be really compassionate with shame. And so it's almost like you're like holding the vicious tiger instead of being the [00:55:00] vicious tiger.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: Yeah, then, then you can cause harm and it can be okay because you then you just expand.
Eva: Yeah. It's okay because I think you have enough humility to
Kyley: Make
Eva: amends. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like,
Kyley: know,
Eva: you're saying that is a quote that I recently heard of like, um, like when I can't trust myself or no way, this is something that came up in the retreat. We just did a, uh, a retreat in Brazil, but like, we talked about the theme of like, when we can't trust ourselves, we turn to violence.
And I, and to track that, to see that in myself, I've really seen that and invite all the listeners to really see that like violence sounds like a hard, like an intense word, but really track it. Like when I say violence, it's either violence against yourself, which is like that self criticism, [00:56:00] the self destruction.
Just, you can feel it, you know, even judgment is a kind of violence, or violence against outwardly. It's like when we don't trust ourselves, we are at, we're like, the world is a threat, and we're constantly hyper vigilant, and we become violent. And so that self trust piece is really important.
Kyley: One of the things that's coming to me now is this idea of violence and craziness. And I'm, and we haven't talked about this on the, in the series at all so far, but I'm thinking about anger, and I'm thinking about moments in my life where I have felt razy in my anger, right? Not just, oh, I'm, I'm feeling anger, but like that kind of like, I'm screaming or I'm stomping, or like I, you know, like, You will feel out that out of control feeling of anger, right?
Um, that does feel like a kind of insanity to me. You know, I don't do it well in my younger years. Um, but I do think that's a kind of insanity. I think it's actually a kind of insanity that [00:57:00] I, I used to have a lot of fear of. And I think that's still sometimes why, why I am afraid of my anger is because.
That because I, I know those experiences are like, you know, I used to talk about it. Like, I would know when I was like tiptoeing up, I could feel myself being angry, but like, you know, I would, at the time I use the word control, like I had control over it. And then I would fall over the edge of the waterfall.
And it was like the anger, this vicious cat is in charge and get the fuck out of the way because she cannot be contained. And I would be, you know, again, just like nasty. But I also, most, most of all, it was just this felt sense that was like. I'm not in charge of myself anymore
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and, um, and I think that is an experience of crazy that we haven't talked about that I think is, is not an uncommon experience for people.
But what's arising for me now is that that the birth of that is that somehow we have tripped into our [00:58:00] unlovability, right? and that the kind of craziness that causes real harm is actually motivated by our perhaps By our like felt sense of unlovability. I don't know if this is universally
Eva: my God. Well, I would, it's like, yes, like skewing, yes, but it might be called something else like unlovability, unworthiness, badness, like it has some, some sort of separation from ourselves. And I want, I mean, yes, like, I mean, this might be an oversimplification again, but it is, it reminds me of the saying of like, hurt people, hurt people, like, yeah, that kind of violence and that sort of craziness, out of control thing, I think is when we're like, what I'm calling separation from ourselves, which, like you said, could just be like unlovability, like there's something wrong with us, like,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: anyway, so like on very on theme with like, I think everything comes back to love.
Like, I feel like part of [00:59:00] like the quote unquote answer here that I feel like is kind of being uncovered in terms of like, well, how do we reconcile our descent into madness is like the self trust, the not, no self condemnation, like the eradication of shame or, you know, being able to at least move through shame so that when we do do harm, we can like, you Right.
You know, we can, we can repair. Um, yeah. And deconstructing our stories of badness. Oh, I remember what I was, what I was going to say earlier. Uh, Pilar Lesko, my, one of my old mentors who, um, if you haven't checked out that episode, that's a really, that's a, that's a, that's a great one actually. And she
Kyley: of our most popular episodes
Eva: Yes, and actually we, I asked her, I asked her, like, do you ever, in that conversation I, I asked her, do you ever, are you ever afraid of going crazy and she was like, yes, and that's part of it, that's part of this spiritual experience, you know. I would go back and listen to it because it's really good. Um, something that she says that [01:00:00] like really resonated with me is that like she's changing all the fucking time and she will say, Like, take everything that I say with a grain of salt, because I might tell you that this is my belief today, and then I might change my mind tomorrow, and she gives herself full permission to do that, um, without, I don't know, there's like a not, someone might experience that as irresponsible, but I actually see that as like really honest and also very playful, like it's not so serious, you know, like, I think going back to this idea of like being in the teacher's seat or the mentor's seat or our business, it's like, you're afraid that.
You're going to lead people off the cliff, but I think there's something about being transparent and being like, this is what I'm saying today. This is what I'm telling you, like, might make money and heal your trauma, but I might change my mind tomorrow.
Kyley: Oh, interesting. How deeply I just felt like. Which I am a very mercurial being, right? I talk all the time about, I mean, I will often like send people voice notes and I'm like, okay, permission to change my mind tomorrow. But, and as you said that I felt [01:01:00] again, that same part of me, who's like giddy, like giddy up, get on the horse.
She is like, but you know, right. So like, like. Like in the same way that I know my love for my kids. I mean, like nothing is the same as that, but it's like our beliefs evolve, but they're, what's showing up, here's what's showing up, what's showing up is this thing that's like, let yourself be what you know, and which is not the same thing that you won't evolve, but it's like.
Fucking commit,
Eva: Yes. Oh
Kyley: like commit to what you know, and then let that change you.
Eva: yes.
Kyley: Don't hold back because you might change. You're gonna change, but like go all the way in because what the hell are we doing any of this for anyway?
Eva: And I think that's some of [01:02:00] the medicine that I need, but don't hold fucking back. Like this is what a lot of this, this, um, initiation into like my fear of craziness and madness is. It's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about all the fears, but really at the end of the day, what you really want is to be able to share what you believe in and to let that serve people.
And I do the same thing where I hold back and I, um, preamble and I buffer and I over explain. I do that a lot. And you point that out to me a lot and it's like helpful, but I think I need more of this medicine of like. Just go whole hog, whole fucking hog and see what that's like and let it terrify me.
Kyley: I have an observation about this tension for you. And. It's specifically because there's a word that you used a bunch of times in this episode that I never quite clocked before, but I think your fear of going crazy [01:03:00] is related to the burden of responsibility. Because you have said multiple times, like, like when I was talking about the power thing and you're like, but you're so responsible with it.
And I, my, my, my felt response was like, Oh, who gives a fuck about that?
Eva: Wow.
Kyley: And you've just used that word a couple enough times that it started to ping for me that like, Oh. You're there's some fear here that if you're irresponsible, Oh, your eyes
Eva: Oh, yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. But give it to me if I'm irresponsible
Kyley: will befall us. The danger will befall. I don't know. I don't know that. I don't know how to finish this.
I mean, ultimately, probably you'll be cast out of love. Blah, blah, blah. Spoiler alert. The end. So it's the same.
Eva: yeah, exactly. Yes, I think there's definitely something there if I'm Irresponsible. I don't know. There's something. Yeah. Basically.
Kyley: to be crazy. It's irresponsible to be crazy. So you can't, you can't afford to be irresponsible. You can't afford to be crazy.
Eva: [01:04:00] Yeah. It's also going back. Yes. Oh, I'm just like, it's going in circles. Like, yes, it's irresponsible because it means that I'm untrustworthy. And that points to how I'm not trusting myself. Like, like, and I, uh, so wait, what's the, so like, what's the juice here?
Kyley: What's the solution? Is that what you
Eva: Do, do I
Kyley: out of here.
Eva: do I just like jump into being irresponsible?
Do
Kyley: Uh, I mean, OK, well, two things. One is I also want to tie it all the way back to our first episode in this series where we talk about your mom, because like talk about a talk about a. Lit talk about a black and white, right? Your mom is crazy and you are responsible.
So it can be a very simple story of like, Oh, you're afraid of being your mom. But I actually am just feeling more like there's no room for your craziness because all like right in a world where like maybe 50 of your, your mom and you are each 50, 50 responsible and crazy. She took all the crazy. So now you have to take all the responsibility.
There's no room for your crazy. Right.
Eva: uh, yes, yes, [01:05:00] yes, yes, yes,
Kyley: And I think an interesting. Okay, so you could just lean all the way into irresponsible, but what I think could be more fun to play with is actually like falling beneath the whole paradigm of responsibly. What the fuck is irresponsible? What does that even mean?
Eva: explore that. Mm hmm, mm
Kyley: And like, Um, I mean, one exercise, this isn't one exercise I think that's always great is like, what if you just look at all the ways in which you are irresponsible, like, so you can't run away from it because you are it.
Eva: yes,
Kyley: But even more, I'm just getting this image of you just sinking down, like irresponsible is like the, um, like driftwood or the top of the water and you're just like floating down and you're looking up at it and you're like, Oh, isn't that interesting? The shadows it makes on the water,
Eva: yes, yes, okay, I
Kyley: it's just a, yeah, it's just an interesting little pattern up there.
Eva: I think I really want to explore that because yeah, this responsibility pieces I think just has a lot to do with my Asian culture, really,
Kyley: That's what I felt very
Eva: yeah, yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. I sent you a [01:06:00] TikTok video about this
Eva: Oh, really? Okay. I don't think I've seen it yet.
Kyley: No, this is very funny, but I literally, there's this cool woman who I follow and she was like, okay, stitch this. If you're from South Asian heritage or South Asian immigrant parents, when did you learn that you were responsible for everything? And I was like, I don't know, someone who might
Eva: was like, Oh, in the womb. Okay. Well, if we're, if we're going on, um, like practices and exercises that we can do, I want to make a, I want to directly address our listeners question, which was in part what spawned this series. Um, she had asked, how do you, like, deal with being perceived as crazy? Which is a good distinction of, like, it's not about being crazy, it's about being perceived as crazy.
And I, and I, this is a Byron Kaney thing where her practice is very much being open to all of it. And so, like, something that I'm practicing is, like, noticing, [01:07:00] becoming aware of all the ways, the things I'm being afraid of being perceived as, even irresponsible or crazy. And, like, as a meditative practice.
But what I mean by meditation is to really experience it, be present with it. It's like, I'm willing and I'm open and I'm looking and I look forward to being perceived as crazy and just being like, going back to what you're saying of like, we have to become the thing or, or allow ourselves in this instance, I think to be perceived it, like I have to allow myself to be perceived as crazy.
Like I look forward to being perceived as crazy. Like I really want to practice letting that into my body. But it's not, it's a welcoming. It's a very soft, gentle welcoming. And like really like, and I've had done this practice in many other ways, but it's like everything is allowed. And what if I could experience that without feeling threatened?
And Oh, actually, sorry, another piece that's like been so like groundbreaking for me, something that I [01:08:00] experienced recently is like, I know that I've come full fucking circle when someone is judging me. for something that I feel that maybe I previously felt insecure about and all I feel towards them is love.
That's when I know that I've come full fucking circle. Like I was, I was insecure about something. I projected that onto someone else and I was like, Oh no, they see me as this, like, but whatever I'd say dumb. Okay. Like, let's just say that's, they see me as dumb. Previously when I'm really identified with this story of dumb, I would be offended.
I'd be triggered. I'd be insecure. I'd be small. I would like overcompensate. But what's something that's is like, when I don't have that story anymore, someone can still perceive me that way. And all I feel towards them is like, there's no threat. It's like, I love you. I just love you. And that is fucking freedom.
So someone can perceive me as crazy. And if I don't love them, that's on me.
Kyley: Oh, that's fascinating. I am really struck by this invitation to not [01:09:00] just allow, but to relish in, right? Like, Oh, I look forward to being perceived like I relish. There's something, it feels really potent in this as a practice. It's not just. I'll be okay if it happens, or I accept with neutrality that it happens or, but I relish.
And it's making me think of this moment that I sent you a telegram message. So, um, I can melodramatically hinting that I've been going through this big heartbreak over these past pack of months. We will do a, like, you know, Kylie spills the gossip episode. Um, Uh, my husband's amazing. The heartbreak has nothing to do with him.
He's the best. Uh, cause I know someone out there is like, Oh shit.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. She's getting divorced. Yeah.
Kyley: Nope, nope, nope. Um, and, um, and there was a moment where I like, I had this really cool moment where I was like, [01:10:00] right. I met telegram do this. I'm like flying, like the snot's running around. I'm just having this moment of like, you know, total heartbreak.
Uh, you know, misery and this knowing shows up that there's this other part of me that's like, look at how rich this is. As I'm like, you know, boogers, right? There's this knowing that shows up that was like with so much love that was like, what a rich experience. Like not even, Oh, look at all the ways that this heartbreak is healing and blah, blah, blah.
And this is for you. And it's good medicine. It was just this, like, Look at, look at the richness of being alive. Can you imagine, would you ever have wanted to go through life without knowing this sensation? And it was dual, right? It was like the part of me that was ugly crying and like having a very hard time in this other party when it was like, would you have ever passed this up?
Of course you want to relish every second of this [01:11:00] experience. Like it's all neutral and how like, yeah, just again, just like. Let's just relish this heart. That has not been, that has not, that hasn't like stayed.
Eva: Right. Right. Right.
Kyley: but it was this really, really cool moment that was like that, that I'm, it's being echoed in what you're saying here of like, what if it wasn't just, I'm okay and I will survive this or even this is good for me, but I relish all of it.
Eva: Yeah. And like to really try it on, like to live from that as an experience, because I think, you know, I'm really like on a Byron Katie role in this episode. I've been referencing her so much, but, um, I, I, you know, her, one of her, one of her things that she says that has really impacted me is like, I'm not enlightened, I'm just someone who knows the difference between what's painful and what's not.
And I think what's revealing itself to me in this conversation is like, how, how painful it is when I'm [01:12:00] afraid of being perceived as crazy, I already see all the ways in which that, um, like limits my life. And so I already know that's not working. Like I know it's not working. So, and then I can see the relishing of it like I'm open I look forward to being perceived as crazy.
Man, my whole body just like opens up. It is in direct contrast to the pain I was feeling earlier, the smallness of trying to protect myself against being perceived as crazy. Like my whole life is limited. And then, but then, yeah, being open, like this is the openness thing being so fucking open. I can just already feel the sensation sensationally in my body.
It's it's difference between what hurts and what doesn't and that I think is intelligent living.
Kyley: and not because it will only be quote unquote good things, but because you will relish the rich, because it will be a rich experience, right? And what you're actually here for, we get confused, but we are actually here for a rich fucking experience, not a like [01:13:00] one note monochromatic, you know, Yeah.
Eva: That's interesting. Yeah, I would actually call it us. We're here. It's true. We're here for rich experience. And I think this is again, that has a lot to do with like your particular, you know, Like sausage juice, which I love so much. And also I'm definitely here for a rich experience, but what came to mind is actually, for me, I'm here for a safe experience because I'm always looking for safety and it feels more, this is the irony.
It feels more safe to me to allow people, like in an, in In a total turn of events, because you wouldn't, you wouldn't, like, you wouldn't have thought this, you know, in episode one, but like, it feels safer to me to be like, I allow, I welcome, I look forward to people seeing me as crazy. That feels safer to me than being like, no, no, no, no, no, you can't see me as crazy.
Let me, let me show you all the ways in which I'm sane and let me defend and let me prove and let me, like, contort myself. That's, I can just see the huge stark and experience
Kyley: is in
Eva: difference,
Kyley: Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. The safety [01:14:00] is, the safety is in allowing. And we throw up all those protections to try to keep ourselves safe. But
Eva: but they don't work. It's an illusion.
Kyley: Yeah. The, the safety, they actually just create cycles of unsafety, these looping cycles of unsafety. Okay. Well, this is the greatest.
I have to go pick up Bertie from school. So we have a hard stop.
Eva: Yes. Oh my God. Thank you to your listeners. We love you so much. Like, yeah, just for coming on this journey. And we might have a part four because I won't talk about psychedelics.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: plant medicine and psychedelics because I think that's a huge part of where people might feel like they're losing their mind.
But that'll be
Kyley: I think in that, I think in that. Perhaps it's if it's about psychedelics and also like experience, right? I talked a lot less than like, I have these experiences of like, of like, yeah, there's weird mystical things and how do we, in addition to psychedelics, I would also love to talk about like how we can actually allow ourselves to let, invite those experiences in.
[01:15:00] Um,
Eva: Oh, I would love that.
Kyley: yeah. Um, Joy.
Eva: Yes. Okay.
What's been bringing me joy is the abundance of animal life around me and living in the jungle. I was just like looking at some toucans the other day. That was just like a family of five toucans, just like hanging out in the, in the trees. And um, there's all these cows around, they're like really beautiful, like two humped cows.
And we have two cats that it's just like, and the birds and the insects and all the insects. They're crazy. Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say like, it's all, it's an ongoing part of my connection, deeper connection with nature. It's yeah. Animals are cool. That's it. There we go. That's my joy. What about you, Kylie?
Kyley: are so fun also.
Eva: They're so fun. They're so colorful and they're so bright and like the butterflies around here, [01:16:00] man. It's just like, I think it does something for my nervous system to see the peacefulness of animals, you know.
Kyley: yeah, um, I'm resentful of the answer I'm about to give,
Eva: Ooh, even better. It sounds juicy.
Kyley: so know that not, there's only part of me on board with this joy, but, um, uh, my heartbreak,
Eva: Wow. Wow, Kylie.
Kyley: sober context for listeners, someone very important in my life, very suddenly and unexpectedly pieced out, um, in November. Um, which we will do an episode and I will share the story. Um, and it's been rough and beautiful and all of the things. What I am feeling right now is this one really powerful source of love that got like yanked out, um, has [01:17:00] given me access to like, I have had so much love pouring and pouring and pouring in from. People who have loved me and held me and, um, you know, friends who have like, you know, propped me up and witnessed me and my own practice, like having my fucking back, you know? And, um, and life ironically, literally Tuesday, part of, I was furious at life for this heartbreak and we're not done. Life and I are not done with my fury. But it's like this, yeah, that saying of like, you know, the goal of heartbreak is to like to let it crack you wide open and all these different iterations of love have just been pouring in and, um, there's an unimaginable amount of joy in that.
Eva: Wow. [01:18:00] Look at you, Kylie Caldwell. That's amazing. Live in your own medicine.
Kyley: I'm going to, I'm going to go back in time to Kylie, uh, in, uh, you know, December, December Kylie be like, this is going to be, this is where you're going to go. You're going to be. Yeah. No, I would have punched her in the face. Actually. If I told her in
Eva: Yeah, totally. You'd be like,
Kyley: her joy would be heartbreak.
Yeah.
Eva: exactly. Yeah. Rightfully so. You'd be like, you're being annoying. Go away. You're just not ready. Yeah.
Kyley: your fucking time yet.
Eva: Oh, all right. Feeling good, Kylie.
Kyley: Yeah. Great.
Eva: Love you.