Welcome to the start of a our long-awaited series on the fear of losing our damn minds. What if our most authentic self is crazy and dangerous? What happens when we step off the path we've been told to walk? Will we be cast out of love for being ourselves? Also, we both came prepared with Rumi quotes.
Welcome to the start of a our long-awaited series on the fear of losing our damn minds. What if our most authentic self is crazy and dangerous? What happens when we step off the path we've been told to walk? Will we be cast out of love for being ourselves?
Also, we both came prepared with Rumi quotes.
ALCHEMY - https://www.kyleycaldwell.com/alchemy
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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Kyley: [00:00:00] And my tea is like the perfect cup of tea. I love that. Oh, I love that. When you know it's going to be a good day is when the tea is perfect and there's no one interrupting you.
So you get to drink it at exactly the right temperature.
Eva: Please leave this in the podcast. I think we've just started our show.
Hey everybody, it's Eva here. And it's Kylie, obsessed with her tea. Yes. Her usual. Welcome back to the morning edition of Hello [00:01:00] Universe. Oh, and welcome back from spring break. We took a break in which so many things have happened and we're, well, some of that, well, I'm sure we'll trickle into this conversation, but it feels really good to be
Kyley: back.
Ugh. I know, I know. I, I, I missed you even though we were talking. Mm-Hmm. , you know, on Telegram. I've missed our long, deep dive conversations. Yeah. And we missed all of you, so. Yes, yes. It's
Eva: not the same.
Kyley: Um, okay. Do you we have a very, we have been preparing to have this episode, guys, folks, for. Like a year. We have talked about a version of this episode, maybe even longer.
So I am very excited to have this conversation already. I feel like it might be a two part episode to be honest. Oh,
Eva: smart. Okay. Um,
Kyley: uh, but before we jump in, do you have anything to promote? Yeah. My wise, beautiful friend.
Eva: Yeah, I just want to do a quick promotion for my one on one coaching now that I'm here in Brazil.
I feel like I'm really just reaping all the [00:02:00] benefits of the jungle and nature consciousness and just feeling really more deeply embodied in myself and my connection with God and source and nature and love and the joy is overflowing and I'm just. I'm really grateful for life right now and grateful for the work that I get to do.
And I want to share with you listeners, if you were looking for someone to deepen your spiritual experience with, even if you're not sure what that looks like, which is actually usually the best when my clients come in, they're like, I don't actually know like what I'm here for. I just know that it feels important and that my spiritual practice is important.
And I want to know what it means to really expand my consciousness and feel more peaceful and be at peace with my mind and enjoy life. Um, you know, when folks come to me like that, I'm like, yes, the door is wide fucking open and it's so fun. So if you are someone who's looking for personal mentorship, which is I think what I do best and also where a lot of the juice happens, you can find me on [00:03:00] my Instagram at I am.
You can email me and we can do a free consultation and get that set up.
Kyley: Um, do you remember in the early 2000s when we made ringtones out of like random sound bites? Yes, yes. If it were the early 2000s, I would make it so that when you texted me, it would be your voice going, It's overflowing with joy!
Eva: Because the way that you said that is just like so delightful
Kyley: and perfect. And also like, yeah, man, that is the. Experience. We are like, just deliciously craving. So,
Eva: you know, Oh man, I wish I just love that. That was the reference though. The soundbites in the two thousands, of course, you brought it there.
And also now I have to think of a way to make that happen. Okay. I know. I know. I know. Jennifer, maybe you can help us our great podcast editor.
Kyley: Um, What about you? Yeah, well, doors are open on alchemy, which if you've been hanging around the show for [00:04:00] a while, you might know is my signature money healing course.
And actually I had a personal breakthrough about alchemy yesterday. So this is a course that is born more than anything. Everything that I teach is alchemy. Um, obviously becomes right from my lived experience, but this especially is like the medicine is most supported me in life and, and, and in moments of, of need.
And so I'm very passionate about teaching it. And, um, yesterday I saw something really beautiful and profound, which is that I have been hiding the way that I talk about this course. I sometimes struggle to talk about it. Because it feels so big and so powerful. So I was like, I don't even just get in here.
I don't know how to explain it. Right. Cause it's about money and it's not about money. And anyway, my big aha yesterday was realizing that, um, I've been talking about it, like the mom who cuts [00:05:00] up vegetables and her kids pancakes on some, some level, because, um, Because some part of me had been feeling really afraid that if I don't talk about money the way people want you to talk about money, they will run away from my favorite, my like beloved creation.
Anyway, I'm sharing all this as my way to introduce you to the course. One, because Learning how to identify these things and then move through them is the very gift of the course. Right? So it's very in keeping and look that during the launch, I would be like, oh, hey, I'm, I'm kind of hiding, um, or they would see a new place where I could expand.
But I also want to share that because. I just want to share. It is hard for me to figure out. I still struggle with how to talk about this, the bigness of what this is. Um, but ultimately what I know to be true is that we are deserving of the experience of unconditional love and none of us actually know [00:06:00] what that is.
Right. We are seeking it like the sunflower that grows towards the sun. And also we don't have like the muscle memory of experiencing consistent unconditional love and in these, in this life, in these bodies. And
The places where money is suffering are not obstacles. They are the portals in to where we can create for ourselves the experience of unconditional love. The truth is that alchemy is a course about rewiring every, everything that you think that you deserve, right? And rewiring your relationship to love and care and generosity and safety and money and receiving and.
And, and, and the, and the conditions that we all have learned, right? That's like, well, in order to be safe, I have to give this away or that away, or I have to wear this mask, right? So the very idea that I would be, you know, talking about money, like, [00:07:00] you know, the vegetables and the pancake, I won't tell them it's about unconditional love.
I'll tell them that it will make them more money is, um, is an example of a condition that we place on ourselves. Like, it's not safe to be my authentic self and receive, I have to be this masked version. And we all have, it's actually maybe a cool lead into the conversation we're about to have. But we all have these masks that we have learned to wear to create an approximation of safety, but it's not really safe because the condition of the safety is don't actually be yourself or give, give yourself away or abandon yourself in some critical way.
And so the truth is the reason that so much money coaching doesn't. Change anything. It's 'cause it's all stuck on this superficial level. Like it's all just dealing with the tip of the iceberg. Mm-Hmm. And this is, of course, it's gonna go, it's, it's a journey. It's gonna take you all the way down to all the things that are under the iceberg so that you rewire Yeah.
Your relationship to life. Mm-Hmm. And, and my intention [00:08:00] is for all of us to walk away actually understanding in a way we haven't before, that we are deserving of and conduits for unconditional love and unconditional safety. And if that is what you want, which it is, because it's what we all fucking want, then come talk
Eva: to me about alchemy.
Yes. I mean, you just said you don't know how to talk about it, but I thought you did such a beautiful job. And that was like, just so tender and so applicable, I think for most people. And I don't know anyone. I mean, okay. So I want to give a shout out to Lucy because she, I, she's like, Just because Lucy, if you're listening to this, I know, uh, you are a fan of the show and, and that means so much to us.
And you're also awesome. And I've been had had, I've had the chances to hang out with Lucy, who is a listener of the show. Who's also been in Brazil, which is like super awesome. And she spends with Kylie anyway. Hi, hi, hi girl. Just want to say she took the class and she [00:09:00] was like, I don't know anyone who's taking the class who hasn't been like, Oh, this was so super transformative.
And she was like that course just like, yeah, it sounded like. Really supported her rewired her and opened her in really transformational ways. So yeah,
Kyley: well and Lucy's gonna be part of teaching the next round I don't know if you know this. Oh, yes.
Eva: Yeah, she mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah,
Kyley: so Lucy is is it some at Lucy Spalding?
Is a will link to her Instagram and our show notes, but she'll love and hate She's a somatic embodiment coach and So once a month in the course, she will be hosting like movement and breath work, integration bonus calls, because we're going to move through some big things and it can be really helpful to have spaces that are about just like moving, you know, moving your body, moving through your breath, um, moving energy.
Yes. And that was also really personal. It's like really liberating to be like, Oh, this is an important part of class that I want in it. And I, it's, I don't, I can [00:10:00] teach it, but it's not the thing that I'm most. Like I'm lit up by teaching and Lucy and I both had kept having the same thought of until finally we both connected and was like, Oh, you have this thought.
I have this thought. Okay, come be the come be the support support. Um, facilitator in the course. So
Eva: awesome. Yay. Fun, fun, fun. Come work with us. We're awesome. Yeah, fun things going on. Okay, let's jump into this episode because I am so, so, so, so, so excited, everybody. Literally, like Kylie said, we've been talking around this episode for a year.
And for me, it's taken this long because, um, because it feels very personal to me. It also scares me, like the whole point of this episode, or the whole topic of this episode, which is about Losing our mind, fear. My fear of going crazy. If you've listened to the show, you know, that is, that is like my biggest fear.
And I reference it all the time. And I'm afraid that I'm going to [00:11:00] be detached from reality, that I'm going to be cast out of love, that I'm going to be unreliable, delusional. Um, just all the things which we can get into. And then talking, I felt so sensitive about it that I couldn't even talk about it.
And it feels really good to have come, I don't know, this far. where I'm like ready to dive in.
Kyley: Yes. Oh, isn't that the best feeling when you realize that you have made enough safety around a previously hot button topic where you can watch how your nervous system is like, Oh, okay. Like the pot has cooled, you know, we can, we can pick this up.
We can, we can hold it in our hands.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes. And a lot of that is, Oh, to you, Kylie, like you've really helped me with that. And I want to share one of the things specifically that you helped me that you shared the constant stream
Kyley: of. Anytime I see any great insanity related meme, I just said this, like, the intersection of insanity and spiritual [00:12:00] awakening, if it is a meme, it is in Eva's DMs from
Eva: me.
Yes, so go check out like the, oh my god, go check out the memes from this episode when we, when we advertise it, because they're so great. They're so funny. If you've ever had the fear of like, am I going crazy? Can people trust me? Am I losing my mind? Is this real? Like, go and just, Just basking in the hilarity of those memes.
Um, they will, I think, nourish you and then share them, share them with everybody. That is, that's my love language.
Kyley: I'm like a cat who leaves a mouse on someone's under doorstep.
Eva: Only it's esoteric memes. Yes. And I'm here for it. Okay. But I do want to read the question because so what prompt you like Kylie and I want to have this conversation, but then when, um, We had a listener send in a Q& A question and once that was sent in, I was like, Oh, it's done.
Like we, like, we got to have this be a whole episode. So if you don't know, Kylie and I also do Q& A's from time to time. So if you ever have a question. That you want some A's [00:13:00] to it could be like a metaphysical, mystical, spiritual question, but Kylie, I know you are into like some hot gossip.
Kyley: I really want someone that's like, I, you know, hate my coworker who keeps microwaving fish in the office and, you know, our office manager.
I don't know, stapled and passive aggressive note to the door. Like, that is the stuff
Eva: that helps me navigate. Yes. Or like, what do I, how do I know when the relationship's over? Like I, you know, that's a big one. Like my, I love my partner or like my partner, I don't know. We can think of a bunch, but yes, we want the hot goss too.
So if you have those questions, you can send it to us in our email, which is also linked at the bottom of the show. We love hearing from you and we love doing Q and A's. Okay. So here is a cue from Sarah. Bye. What do you think and feel about being crazy? What does that even mean to both of you? Because there is actual crazy out there too.
I also know I'm not crazy, but is that true? What do you both do knowing you may be seen as crazy and where is that important to you and not important to you? [00:14:00]
Kyley: So good. Can I put out one thing about this question that I really love that she's combining? There's a lot of things in here, but she's combining And acknowledging the difference between being seen as crazy and the fear of being seen as crazy and the fear of being crazy.
And I think it's worth us noting that those are two, I think, related, but distinct concerns. Yes, yes.
Eva: And I want to talk about both. Yes, same. Because actually the second part about like being seen as crazy, Not surprisingly, goes into my other biggest thing. Like fear, which is this, which is what you pointed out to me, this fear of being misunderstood, which I never saw it that way before, but really, it's just this way.
It's for me, it's just being like, what I'm realizing is I have a fear of like, I mean, something that feels really true to me and feels very good to me. you know, invaluable to me and then I might share it and someone else is going to be like, Oh, she's just some, [00:15:00] my biggest fear for specific, for someone who works online, it's like, Oh, she was just like another airy fairy, like whatever, you know, spiritual.
Kyley: Yeah. Like my fear of like, Oh, well, if I keep talking about money, people are going to be like, she's one of those wide brim hat millennial coaches. Oh my
Eva: god, you were bringing it today. That is hilarious.
Kyley: It's the lack of caffeine.
Eva: Oh, okay. Okay. So where do we, where do we start Kylie? I
Kyley: think I'm interested in starting up from the, about the fear of being crazy. Maybe, I do keep feeling like this is going to be a two part episode, maybe part two is Fear of Being Perceived as Crazy, um, and I actually think I want to hear you talk a little bit more about, because I have had moments of this, but it's not as [00:16:00] loud, doesn't show up as persistently for me as it does for you, um, so I'm just kind of curious, which could well be that it's just so deeply buried I haven't touched it yet, right?
Like, let's be totally
Eva: transparent. No, I think you're really good at embracing some, like, I don't actually think you have a story of, like, You know, you, you have your like shamanic mystical powers and I don't often see you go like, but you have doubt, you know, you're like pretty, that's what I love about you.
It's like you, not to say you never have damage. I mean, I know you've shared stories where it definitely the beginning of your spiritual process that was there, but like, you're very like, It's very embodied, you know?
Kyley: Thank you. Well, and I can share about this in a minute, but I actually had, it's, I must've been in prep for this episode.
I actually had a moment last night where I was like, am I just losing my fucking mind? Is that what all this is about? But I can, I'll talk about that in a minute. But I'm, I am curious. I think what feels really integrated for me is that of course I have moments of doubting it. And [00:17:00] so the doubt, when the doubt shows up, it doesn't make me feel.
Like I have to choose either or right. So when I have moments of doubting, am I just being led along? Like if I'm frigging dumb in here, if I'm making all this up, or I think. It's not that I don't doubt, it's just that there's a lot of, there feels like a lot of space for the doubt. And so I don't get dysregulated
Eva: by it.
Yes. Which is such a, we've talked about that. I think we've had to do the whole episode on doubt, which is that like doubt is allowed. It's you make room for it. It doesn't mean anything's wrong. And so, and I think we'll put maybe touch into that a little bit more, but like, I think that's a big part of embracing craziness.
Yeah.
Kyley: So, okay. So talk to us, share with us. Okay. What this, like how this fear has been
Eva: alive for you. Okay. So I think it comes from a couple of places. My fear, what do I even mean when I, when I say I'm afraid of going crazy? Like [00:18:00] I think you, you, you would think a lot of it comes from my mom, but it, it doesn't, I think a little bit of it comes from there, but it doesn't come as much from this as you would think.
Like, and when I'm speaking to is that my mother is mentally ill and I've seen her like Out in public doing some crazy fucking shit. And of course that's, that will have left an impact on me. Like this idea of like, it's wrong to be this way and that, and, and not only is it wrong, but then you like freak people out and you inconvenience people and okay, actually maybe this probably doesn't have a bigger impact on me than I think, but like, just that, like, you got to keep it together, you know?
And so I never wanted to be what I've seen growing up. So that's the first place where that comes from.
Kyley: Which also makes sense because. you are the one who's paid the tax right, of your mom's mental health. It's been, it's fallen to you on lots of different levels, right? Just the kid who didn't get what she needed, but also the adult who he has to [00:19:00] frequently step into caretaker role.
Like your mom's mental illness is. often becomes responsibility for you. So it makes sense that you would then be like, have a lot of angst about.
Eva: Angst and resistance, right? Because I'm like, yes, exactly. Because I was carrying, like, I was like, Bearing the brunt of that. And so I'm like, well, I don't ever want to do that to anybody else.
Right.
Kyley: Or like, ask what's under that. Sorry. You're trying to give a list that I've already said. Can I ask like what's under that? Like, what is the, if you, if you are crazy in a way that inconveniences other people, what, what is the concern under the concern?
Eva: I actually think it's. It always goes back to the same thing, which is that I will be cast out of love, which is really what at first I, what I said was like, it's that it's, it's like, it's scary. There's like terror there. So I associate that with terror. Like when you see someone totally out of fucking control and like, you make people really uncomfortable and it's [00:20:00] scary.
Um, but then I'm like, but really what's under that. I mean, sure. Who cares? I scare some people. But what happens when they scare people is that the fear of like, yeah, disconnection, cat being cast out of love. Um, so.
Kyley: Does that answer your question? Yes. I'm literally taking notes of this. This is a coaching session.
Yes,
Eva: yes, yes. Do it. Okay. And then the second piece where this comes from is, Oh yeah. Oh my God. I haven't shared this on the podcast before. And I was thinking about maybe if it was time and I won't go into it now because it's too long of a story, but this is something else that I've created space around that I feel like more.
Open to talking to since the retreat that we did in Brazil, but I also had like a really bad trip on acid one time that I ever have. I have. I share this with you. Oh my God. Telling.
Kyley: Yeah. Right. I feel like whenever like you're like bestie that you talk about everything with reveal something many years in, it's like, Oh, this might, this might have like tentacles, [00:21:00] you know?
Right.
Eva: Right. Yeah. And, um, I had a really, yeah, and I think anybody who's ever had a bad trip, like a really bad trip can might can relate to like, Oh, wait, I am experiencing losing my fucking mind and it's a little traumatic. So there's that. Um, and the other thing is just from talking to you and what's been revealed on this podcast, a lot of it is really just like, I think what people call the witch wound.
Or some of it actually feels very, um, like past lives because it's like, so ingrained, like it feels deeply ingrained in my body. And I'm like, but I don't even, you know, I don't have a story about it and there doesn't need to be a story. It's just like, okay, like this has got to be from sometime when, you know, women, I think this is like, I think what I'm carrying is just the ancestral story of women who never had the right to share or speak.
And women who are so intuitive, like we're so. It's like in our bones, you know, and we have this [00:22:00] like ability to understand and connect and feel really deeply. And then all of that gets like shut down for, you know, for different reasons, whether it was because you were an actual witch and you saw things and experienced things and, and you were perceived as dangerous.
And so therefore you had to like hide all those things or just in every, you know, Evolution or generation of being a woman. And so there's that too.
Kyley: Oh, I mean, what's actually listeners, if any listener has like a really good nonfiction, like historical book about the witch trials, I would love a rack because, um, I really want us to actually dive in my history nerd self.
But I think the thing that's important to note when you're talking about the witch wound piece is. When you actually read about like the European and, you know, Salem witch trials, what's mind blowing is that it's not, it's not actually about women who were witchy, right? Or women who [00:23:00] did like intuitive, It's like women full stop, right?
It's just this collective terrorization of women that now then like lives in our epigenetics, right? Um, and that's the other piece that when you talk about this, especially actually, as soon as we started this conversation felt so strongly how this is ancestral for you. Oh, look, zoom is giving me a thumbs up.
I don't know if anyone else's zoom does this, but mine goes, gives random thumbs up as a validation. I say something really great. Um, uh, uh, I just, I just want to like, you know, as your shamanic mystical hotel, I think not only is it like cultural witch wound or past lives, I actually feel specifically that there's this intense ancestral legacy that is here and, and, and, um, Yeah, I can actually just feel the [00:24:00] energy of it, like moving through your mom to you.
And then I actually, um, I actually just feel this energy of, okay, here's what just showed up. I got this image of the tech, almost like a, like a, like a tidal wave, like this huge wave of the like burden and pain and suffering of this kind of. insanity that's actually, that has to do with all these pieces that we're going to talk about coming through, crashing through your mom.
And then I saw this image of you as like a breaker wall, like you, like you, Eva, as the, as the breaker wall that just rises up to cradle and catch the wave, um, and send it back into the sea. So no wonder this is a big feeling and sensation and experience for you because And in this moment, as we're talking about it, it feels like this, yeah, just this huge, [00:25:00] yeah, this huge energy of you, the bigness of you just like catching this pain that you've been carrying.
Ancestor, like your ancestors have been caring for generations and you're like giant brick wall. That's like, okay, we're good with this one. Now we can
Eva: send it back to the sea. Oh wow. That's so beautiful. Yeah. That is really cool. And I think I want to like, you mean send it back into the sea as in.
Completion.
Kyley: We don't, yeah, we don't need this burden anymore. Yeah. You know, like it's served its purpose. This isn't ours anymore. It never was and it doesn't need to be anymore.
Eva: Yeah. And I'm really starting to feel that actually, which is interesting. So thank you for saying that. And I want to add. It's really, it's, it's a bit of a doozy or it's just paradoxical or could end up a pain in the ass to be someone who's so deeply committed to her spiritual practice and to spirituality and consciousness expansion.
[00:26:00] And also fear being crazy. Do you see how like that could just be like such a fucking mind fuck? Because this is the whole journey of like, of my, my spiritual path is like questioning everything that I know. End. And challenging all the constructs and deconstructing everything and which then, you know, and all of that stuff to experience real freedom.
But as you do that, of course, or as I have done that, of course, um,
it means going off the beaten path in some ways. And how can you do that without, for me, it's like, without also questioning like, That brings up a lot of my fear of like, am I going crazy? Am I going crazy? Because I'm going against the norm or what is socially
Kyley: acceptable. Yeah, and I love that because.
Like, of course they go together because they're actual, like, you know, like my favorite candy is like salted caramel, right? Like they, [00:27:00] they, of course they're perfect together because would your ongoing spiritual expansion be as rich if it didn't involve this like reoccurring journey through the tension and discomfort of, you know, You know, am I going to lose my mind?
And then also, would you be, especially considering the density that this has had in the past, would it, would you be willing to wade through the fire of it if the reward didn't feel so sweet? Right? And if you weren't so enamored with. what you get out of walking through the fire. Yes,
Eva: exactly. Exactly. Yep.
Of course they go together. Yeah. There it's, it's not. Yeah. I could, it's a beautiful dance in some ways, you know, what's a beautiful dance when I embrace it. It's crazy making when I resist it. But now what's happening is like through the years, it has become more of like a beautiful dance. Um, okay. This is a bit of a random question, but I do want to ask, cause like you asked me, [00:28:00] like, where does this come from?
And I, and I, I just want to point out all the ways that I suspect other people might feel this craziness thing too. Right. Which maybe you can speak to as well from your experience, especially of someone who. Yeah. And we've had guests come on and talk about this. You know, sometimes people hear voices.
Sometimes people are channeling shit. There's like mediums or like, I don't know if this is real. Like this is actually happening. There's that whole process, but also I'm curious for you, Kylie and maybe other listeners, do you ever see like a homeless person, a houseless person on the street who seems like maybe like they've lost their mind, but you consider having lost their mind, maybe they're talking to themselves or muttering they're scratching, you know, they're like, um, and I guess my question is like, does that bring up a reaction for you of like, Oh, I don't.
There's fear there of like being identified of like, I don't want to, there's compassion there. Usually, you know, you're like, okay, if you'll Bad. And I feel empathy, but there's also fear of like some type of identification.
Kyley: Well, that's an interesting [00:29:00] question. Um, so I, I lived in Boston for a long time and I worked in Boston for a long time once we moved to the suburbs.
And I think my, my biggest thing that I saw in myself when I would see, um, a house, you know, a houseless person with, who had seemed to have clear mental illness was I watched how. I watched how I wanted to like, just not look, but I wanted to just like turn away because of discomfort, um, and shame. But I don't And, and so I was, my intentional practice is now like that.
I will just look someone in the eye, right. That I will like, you know, if I have cash and that feels, you know, if I have cash or if I am going in to buy a muffin, right. I'll like say, Hey, you want a muffin too. Um, but I think the biggest thing to me and like the thing I tried to teach my kids is just like saying hello and like being [00:30:00] seeing someone's humanity.
Um, and, and, uh, And so I think the biggest thing that I, I watched is how much I wanted to just like a version of me wanted to just like, not acknowledge because of discomfort, but I don't, I don't know that it triggered in me discomfort of identification so much as. I think what it felt more is like the shame of like, this world can be really ugly.
And do I have room to let the ugliness of the world in? That's what I think I experienced and I experienced louder. And that's what I have to invite into my body when I am seeing the humanity in someone who's You know, in a lot of suffering is, um, yeah, the world is actually very ugly and there are some really terrible things that happen that shouldn't be, that shouldn't be okay, but that we make.
Okay. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I think that's beautifully said. And I, and I bring that up because I [00:31:00] think those types of interactions, I don't know, bring up, usually bring up something in us. And I think I've found that they can be a beautiful teacher for. Letting in our humanity, looking at what it is that we're avoiding, like what it, you know, what it brings up, whatever it brings up in you whenever you see a houseless person, I think is in, yeah, an invaluable spiritual experience.
Yeah. When you,
Kyley: when you look at it. I think I was trying to teach, but teach my kids to like, it doesn't cost anything to treat someone like a human, you know, like. When
Eva: I'll say it costs something to not treat someone like a human, we pay the price and we can feel it. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Anyway, that was a bit of a sidetrack.
Okay.
Kyley: I, but I think, uh, I think a powerful one, because I do think that that, that that is a, that's a part of this fear of, you know, that's part of what sits under the fear of being insane because we actually have, we show, right? So this idea of I'll be cast out of love. If I become [00:32:00] insane is actually not just a crazy idea of yours because we have, we have structured a society society in which we will cast people out of love for being insane.
If you do not, it are so much of our world is varying levels of, um, you have not. You have not conformed and therefore there is a cost for you to pay and the extent to which you do not conform, um, perhaps parallel to the extent to which you are, um, in need, but like not conform and high need potentially is like the even more extreme becomes an extreme version.
But like, I guess I'm trying to reflect back that the fear is actually not a crazy fear because we have built, we have built a model in which that is exactly the thing that can happen to people. And it does happen.
Eva: Yes. Thank you so much for making that connection. I knew I brought it up for a reason, but it's like, you know, you asked me where this fear comes from and it's also this fear of like, we see it, it's, we see people being cast out of love and there's no support and, and then we [00:33:00] feel, yeah, and then we have all these feelings of like shame or disgust and it's like.
And, or rejection or wanting to look away or trying to look, it's all this, it's all like complicated, but like, I feel like looking at that is looking a society and how we treat people who are not necessarily living according to, it's like almost like punishment. It's like, um, That's, that's where you're going to, like, that's where, that's where you're going to end up.
And that's that our brain always jumps to that. Like, we've talked about this with money before. It's like, okay, you have a launch and it's not working well. And all of a sudden your brain goes to, oh, if this doesn't work out, I'm gonna be homeless. Like you don't even think about how, like, there's going to be a million steps before actually being houseless.
But like immediately just jump to like the worst possible, you know, conclusion. And I think that's
Kyley: actually interesting. I have a client who that's very much her story. We talk about this all the time. She's the best. Uh, hi, if you're listening, you know who you are. Um, that's not, I don't, that's not actually everybody's everyone.
When [00:34:00] worst case scenario that we make the catastrophe, catastrophizing that we do, we all have different catastrophes, right?
Eva: Yes. Yes.
Kyley: So I think that's also worth noting is to normalize that we do catastrophize,
Eva: but, but the homeless stories,
Kyley: but the specific fear that shows up is its own kind of telling beautiful thing.
Eva: It is. It's true not everyone has that, but I will say I've talked to a lot of people and like, without me prompting, they're like, they've just said like, that's, that's, they just immediately go there. They just immediately go there. I think it's actually, I think it's, it's specific to maybe what your triggers and fears are.
And also I think a lot of people. I don't think it's uncommon because again, it speaks to a lot of like it's speaking to what society I think has shown us like the ugliness of society that's possible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Um, I was going to say, I was going to ask you a question.
Oh, oh, so this, I, I don't know. This, [00:35:00] um, the ugliness of society in this particular way in which, you know, we do treat people with mental illness, like pretty atrociously, especially this level of like quote unquote insane. Does that feel particularly resonant for you? Because on some level, if you and your family didn't carry and cradle your mom the way that you do, that.
Like, she, that, that could be her, her journey as well. Oh,
Eva: one hundred fucking percent. Very perceptive of you. And
yeah, I don't actually think I've ever put that together before because she, we've all, we have always cradled her, but it's like, yeah, maybe like the strong avoidance of not wanting to ever let that happen. Like, yeah, like basically if she didn't have her family, like, I mean, she would probably be dead, but, but prior to being dead, Yeah.
I think I feel a lot of empathy and identification with people out there because I'm like, yeah, I get it.
Kyley: I get it. [00:36:00] And I imagine that the moments where you feel some resentment of your mom might also be the resentment that's like, fuck, the stakes are really fucking high. Right. Like if I'm annoyed at my mom, like, okay, I don't call her right or like, right.
Like, I mean, like if I'm annoyed at my mom, the stakes are, are different because She can hold her own. I'm not like worried about her safety. And so there's actually space for my resentment when it needs to show up, which I mean, these days we have a really amazing relationship and you know, that's not, that doesn't show up that much.
But the idea of being like, there's, there's just more space for me to feel what I need to feel. And the stakes are so high because If you turn your back on your mom, which someone in your shoes might have decided to Mm-Hmm. The consequence could be, well, like she's literally out on the street. Mm-Hmm.
Yeah. On the street. And so that must
Eva: the Yeah. Yeah. Out on the street. Yeah. And then, and yeah. That, yeah.
Kyley: Mm. Yep. And, [00:37:00] and then death. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Uhhuh . Yeah.
Eva: And also I feel like I wanna say something about that, but I'm not sure.
Kyley: I just want to drop in some really big compassion because there's this, there's Like weaving.
There's this deep intricate weaving that I am sensing around. Um,
yeah, just responsibility and love and care for your mom and for you and the way that they sometimes feel like they're at odds and also the way that you consistently find a way to show up for the both of you that somehow feels woven into the very fabric of this ancestral and personal question and Um, yeah, I think I just want to reflect how deep this is in a way that it's kind of, it's actually kind of reminding me of, um, [00:38:00] You know, my, I was born when my mom was 19, my ancestry is a hundred percent Irish.
There's tons of, there's tons of heartbreaking stories about, you know, in Ireland, unwed mothers, you know, being sent away and their kids being taken away from them. It's a, it's a well documented trauma, um, in fairly recent history in Ireland. Um, and I have had moments where I have like felt the significance of.
Um, mother and motherhood and agency and, and being able and like living your life as mother. Um, and I had like five, these moments where I see, I have felt the weight of me and my grandmother had 10 kids in like 13 years. Right. And I have, and I have just had these moments of feeling the weight of mother and choice and agency.
That is amazing. Just like coursing through the veins of my ancestors and [00:39:00] through me and through my grandmother and my mother and an hour and me and our story together. And that it's, I just have these, I have these, I've had a couple of profound moments where I can feel how, how tremendously vast. This thing is that I don't even fully understand.
And I'm sharing that here because I think this, I think the similar weaving it's happening happens here for you. And I find a lot of comfort when I can zoom out and see this is big cause it's big and it shows up powerfully and it shows me in ways that I don't understand. And it shows up in ways that are sometimes confusing or almost overwhelming or, or almost overwhelming to my system because.
Because it is all of those things, and there's some real compassion that And, and there's some real compassion and then also like agency that shows up when I can see it from that zoomed out perspective. [00:40:00] I don't know if that makes sense or feels resonant or feels reinforcing of the crazy making. Cause now I'm just talking about all of our ancestors.
Well, I don't.
Eva: Honestly, you would think that it would feel resonant. So it either doesn't feel resonant or I'm not letting something in and both could be true. Um, it's not that I don't think that this big, obviously it's big because you know this, I've like talked about it a million times, but it doesn't feel, I don't know.
I think I have to think about that a little bit more. Yeah. Okay. But I think when I say that it's like, when you, when we talk about how it feels,
the way that I relate to that is when you say it feels big is like, I've seen all the ways that it shows up in my life. Mhm. And one more surface level things. But of course, the surface level things are the things that point to the deeper.
Kyley: Yeah. Does that make sense? Yes. So, okay, here's my question for you then.
What does it mean to go crazy? This fear of going crazy? What does it mean?
Eva: Well, that's, that's the thing. [00:41:00] Like I don't, I have no My, my definition has no legs, doesn't stick like, like, because to be crazy means to be detached from reality, but also reality means nothing to me, but
Kyley: in the moments of fear and the fear shows up when it feels hot, so when, when it feels alive for you and the fear is.
Going crazy. What is the fear or how does it show up or either physical sensation or story? Um,
Eva: I'm not sure I understand the question because I feel like it's, is this the same question as before? Cause the story is I'm going to be cast out of love. Like to be crazy. It always leads back to that. Like to be crazy means that I mean, I can, so there's a surface thing, which is like,
Kyley: um, what are the things that you think are you, I think what I'm asking is like, that's the, that's the, that's price you think you'll have to pay.
But I think I'm curious, What are the things that, in your fear, you're afraid are the signs or symptoms or evidence that you could be losing your mind or might be losing your mind? Like, what are the [00:42:00] things that make you go, Oh, is this, is this me losing my mind? I
Eva: see. Yes. Yes. So that's what I was talking about, the surface things.
Like, that's what I mean. It's like, these are the things that I think happen, make me self conscious. Okay. So let's get into that. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great. Cause that's kind of like what I want to get to too. And I think, um, and I actually want to make it, I can speak to my experience and I want to make it universal too, because what I want to point out for people is how I think we are all sent this message in some way and we may not even be aware of it.
But, um, It shows up in all different ways. One that I think is very common is this idea of being too much. Even too muchness, even too muchness is crazy. Basically like being a fucking handful, having really big emotions. Like it's not exactly crazy by the way. You know, I don't, I don't mean like [00:43:00] insanity crazy in that moment, but just like, she's a crazy bitch, you know, that, that this, this, this terminology that I think we have for people who.
You know, just have really big, you know, who live bigly. And so you mean like messy. So like, even when you've talked about like being too big, being too much, like, I don't think your story is necessary. I'm going to lose my mind. It's not that kind of crazy, but it's just this idea of like, yeah, being like someone where like, you don't want to get too close to that person because she's just a handful, a messy handful.
Kind of like,
Kyley: yeah. The feeling of like sloppy or inappropriate or yeah. Is it. Is it the
Eva: so that's just can I just like give all the examples I feel like there's so many there's so many right okay so um that's one just like. And I think again, this is a generalization, but I think that can oftentimes apply to women.
Um, or just like [00:44:00] being raised in any kind of family where you're just like, you're like, showing emotions isn't like appropriate, which was not my family. But I feel like I hear that is a thing sometimes, you know, um, where else does it show up? Oh my God, it shows up. So, okay. There's so many good examples.
I'm so glad you brought this up. Cause I, and I would, I want to ask you actually ask you to examples of when it starts to feel like we're doing this where I think there's a lot of examples of when. I start to see that what is perceived as the insane thing is actually the more sane thing. Uh huh. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. But other ways where that shows up is like anytime I start to live against the norm of society. Even, even little things like when I started becoming a life coach and that was whatever, six, seven, I don't have no idea, five to seven years ago. I never remember when I started, but like,
Kyley: I think seven.
Eva: Okay. So seven years, bitches. And so when I started that life coaching wasn't, it was a thing, but not as big as it [00:45:00] in common as it is now. And even then this idea of like, Oh my God, I'm going to be a life coach. Like, what the fuck does that mean? Are people going to take me seriously? People are going to think I'm a weirdo.
Like I, those were the stories that I had. Um, Or, um, I remember even when I first started meditating, like whatever, a gazillion years ago, even that seemed a little bit like, so normal now, but you know, alternative and being like people were and being like, are people going to think I'm a weirdo if I'm like, if I tell them about my like deep meditation practice, like those sorts of things,
Kyley: or even just interesting too, because.
I also wonder
both of these things. You also now have all these people in your life who meditate and who are coaches. So it's also like in pursuing the against the grain path, you have also created a community in which it's not, it's no longer against the grain. Right. Sometimes I pop my head out into the rest of the world and I'm like, Oh, you all aren't talking about like your, you know, deepest shadow wounds all the time.
Yeah. It's a real bummer. And, [00:46:00] um, and, and I like forget that that's not how everybody. Walks around the world Uhhuh, so that like at one point it did feel counterculture, but now that actually feels normal in part because when you step off the path, then you get to create the experience you to like create the community that reflects back the norm normativity of that.
Eva: Oh to 100 fucking percent. Yeah. We've also recorded a podcast about that, about the importa of finding the importance of finding your people. Mm-Hmm. , but also. How it also doesn't become like hard anymore because I think for me, once I dropped the story that like these things were weird because they weren't actually, you know, but like it was just.
Then, I dunno, then organically, yeah. It wasn't like I had to effort to make these changes. No, it just shows up. It just shows up and then, and then, and then your whole like, perspective of reality just shifts with it. Your whole, you know. Mm-Hmm. and, and so, yes. But, okay. I'm trying
Kyley: to think of like, I have a question.
Mm-Hmm, . Sorry. Can I ask a question with the living against the norm? So part of it is like, are people gonna not take me seriously or whatever, but is Mm-Hmm. , is there also a fear of like, [00:47:00] oh look, I'm crazy to be doing. Like there'll be some, like, I know the cast out of love, peace, but like, is there some. Is there some concern of like danger for pursuing these things that feel true but alternative to you?
Some type of danger?
Eva: I'm like a zillion different things that feel dangerous. Of course, like 100%. Like, uh, one thing that I don't know this, Okay, this is how that shows up for me. When I, when I see danger, I don't mean it's a threat to me, but I'm actually afraid that I'm going to be perceived as a threat to others.
So oftentimes when I'm like, even when I'm like writing content for like Instagram and sometimes, you know, fucking language just doesn't cut it. I'm using words like, you know, it's just like, you know, I'm trying to write things and I'm like, this just sounds fucking hokey as shit. And I'm like, and I, Um, well, like over edit [00:48:00] or like overthink because my fear is people will not take me seriously because I'm going to like, yeah, because I feel like a threat.
Does that make sense? Like, I feel like a threat. I'm untrustworthy. That's what it is. I'm untrustworthy. Mm hmm. And, and that's, again, because of the spirit, like this, so you know how you have this thing about business coaches and you can get triggered by just business coaches cause you're just like, Oh, like these people are just, Teaching it all in the wrong way.
And they're teaching this message about like, you know, that actually promotes greed or whatever. And it like just gets under your skin. That's how I feel about spiritual, um, teachers. Sometimes to be clear,
Kyley: if you're, if you're greedy, actually, I'm like, lean into the monster, love your greed, stop rejecting it because you'll be more generous.
You start projecting greed, but yes, there is a particular kind of like quick fix, superficial. false promises, bullshit and business coaches. Yes, yes,
Eva: yes, yes, exactly. And that's how I feel about spiritual coaches, like spiritual things that I see online because I'm like, these people are promoting, like you said, the [00:49:00] superficial aspect of it.
And that's actually harmful. It can be really harmful. And so therefore I'm like, Oh, do I fall into that category where I'm also harmful to others?
Kyley: Yes. Yes. I know this. Well, . Can I make an observation? Yes, please. Let's go. There's two phrases that you have given that are like Chef's kiss because they're just like gorgeous tales, which in the very beginning when you're talking about your fear of going insane, the phrase, this is why I got my notebook out was you said the fear was that you will make people really uncomfortable.
And here you're talking about being perceived as a threat to others.
Eva: I'm writing this down.
Kyley: I don't think your fear of insanity has so much to do with insanity as it does with like Your fear of being powerful like like there's like some some some interwoven thing is that the fear is
I'm struggling to like put it into the [00:50:00] succinct mic drop words that I want to pull out. But there's something here that essentially the fear is that you will be big and powerful and that that is scary because you are untrustworthy.
Eva: I have a lot to say about that. When you first named the first few things about like, you know, that I'd make people uncomfortable and that I'd be like a threat to others. That's, that's when I can be like, Oh, that's my mom shit. Like that very, it's like the core wounding of like, that's like you said, I was the recipient of that.
And so I don't want to be that to others. And so I assume that being like, I don't, it's scary. Like, you know, to be too big means like, would be like how I think my mom was. And by the way, because it's complicated with my mom, she had mental illness, but a lot of that was also caused because of her like really rigid Asian upbringing and being a woman and like her and this like really unhealthy marriage that she was in like all this fucked up.
She was also, she was a victim in certain, in, in certain ways. And so. And so she [00:51:00] was actually incredibly powerful, like so fucking powerful and all of that just got like smushed down. So, so anyway, what I, what I'm, what I'm feeling in this moment is like, yes, I can see how because she made other people uncomfortable and because I perceived her as a threat.
I'm like, well, if I'm. Like her, I will also be the same and I don't, and I like really reject that. I don't want to make people uncomfortable. I, I, if I'm too big, I'm going to be a threat. Like I, I don't, you know, I'm saying like, there's so much resistance to being that. The powerful piece though, is like the fear of being powerful.
It's like, when you say that, I know that that's, there's so like, there's a huge chunk of truth in there. But then the question comes in to me. It's like, well, what does that even mean to be powerful?
Kyley: Well, and I was thinking that that maybe that's my language. Maybe a more accurate, more resonant word is authentic.
Your most authentic self is, is, is bigger because she's like peeled off the masks and the layers. And, and, [00:52:00] and what's the top, it's like, okay, so we take your mom, your mom's authenticity was like squished into this tight, tidy box. Right. And again, we can map that behind her were women who also like their authenticity and their big feelings and their big knowings and their big love was squished down to this tidy box.
And then. You zoom all the way. And then as a result, your mom ruptures and causes all this fucking harm that you have to pay the price for. And so you're like in this almost exhausting, intricate game of like unraveling the mask so you can be as authentic and free as possible. Without letting it completely slip because then you'll inconvenience others, right?
It's like, how can I be as free as possible without hurting anybody ever?
Eva: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Meaning the unraveling, which is like what I'm already doing, which I've been doing for years, which is what I want to do more of. Cause it's the, everything is dangerous. Essentially that that's [00:53:00] like the, this is like the.
Constant ping ponging back and forth, like dichotomy tension within it's like all I want more than anything else. And I think this is true for everybody is to be completely 100 percent myself, free, authentic. That's all we are. That's all any of us wants. But that's the big fear is that if I, if that were, if we didn't have this fear, everyone would be authentic and free 100 percent of the time.
But we are not because we are afraid that, or, you know, it goes back to so many things. It's that for me, maybe it's that I'm dangerous, but really it's also that I'm unlovable, that if I'm completely myself, people aren't going to like what they see. Um, you know, all of the, um, Different. We all have the story in a different flavor or that I'm unworthy, you know, whatever.
It's all kind of the same fucking thing. It is the cast out of love thing that is not dating. It is not safe to be 100 percent authentically ourselves, big and free.
Kyley: Yes. A thousand percent. And I particularly am [00:54:00] enamored with this. Authentic you is dangerous because that's the kernel. I think the, the, the, I'm afraid of going crazy is Because authentic, my most authentic self is dangerous and untrustworthy, which this is my Bertha Mason story.
Right? The listeners know that I have this like mad woman in the attic, right? That I have regularly had these visions of like my higher, my God self, like this part of myself who is the most powerful iteration of me. And I often see her as this like, you know, voracious, crazy, unhinged, fucking, it's from Jane Eyre, birth to Mason.
She lives in the attic. She burns the house down at the end. She's the hidden ex wife, not ex.
Eva: Anyway. I should really read this book.
Kyley: We should, we should really do like hell universe book club
Eva: where we like all, yes, yes.
Kyley: And, and the thing that I think I'm fascinated by is that I think we are, we're, when we're on this journey of self exploration, [00:55:00] I think we get really good at seeing how we're afraid of being, we're afraid of being cast out of love.
Like we're, we can, I think we can do this really beautiful job of loving our small selves and seeing our small, our small self and like letting them in and like, okay, come on in little kids. But what you're actually pointing to is that is the big you that you're scared of, right? It's, it's, this is an, I will be, I'll lose my mind and I will be defenseless and I will be alone on the street and no one will see me.
Like it is cast out of love, but it's not from this place of powerlessness. Like the core fear is not that you will be powerless and defensive, defenseless. The core fear is if I am totally authentic, I will be,
I don't think I will cast myself out of love cause I'll be too big for it. Does that make sense? What I'm trying to point to? I'm having trouble. It's like I'm feeling the energy. You're shaking
Eva: your head. No, [00:56:00] don't. I'm not following. No, that's totally
Kyley: fair. Um,
cause you're authentic. You the big fucking deal, right?
Eva: Well, okay. See, like we're really, we're going to get lost in the weeds here, but even that is interesting language to me. Like, what does that mean? Big. Cause like, I don't, I'm like, I don't know if this is a resistance thing or if I'm experiencing it differently, but people are always like, yeah, it's big.
It's big. And I'm like, that's, I keep, every time I keep going into like powerful and big, it disperses. Yeah. Because it's not resonant words for you. Yeah. Cause it's not big and powerful. It's like, I keep thinking I'm supposed to be big. Like, cause there's all this language out there. Like when you are really yourself, you're really big and powerful.
But then I like step into it. But when I, it's like, Oh, then I step. And again, okay. So I've had two ayahuasca experiences recently. People, by the way, since moving to Brazil, which I haven't even talked about, and I don't know. And I want to, part of me like really wants to share and part of it feels really sacred.
So I like. I don't want to keep it to myself, but I assume [00:57:00] it'll trickle in here, you know, in the episodes here and there. But like, that's what happened to me on this ayahuasca experience was like, I saw that power was just authenticity and vulnerability. It was like so clear, but that wasn't big. It was just isness.
Like I just came back into myself. It wasn't like me growing into a bigger version of, I just came back to myself. I'd say, Oh, here I am again. Oh, here I am again. Here I am again. Here I am again. And it wasn't a big deal. It was just this. It was just simplicity. Isness. Does that make sense?
Kyley: Yes. And actually, I think this is something that's illuminating for me, which is one of the things people always say to me about why they come to work with me and what they get out of working with, with me is.
That I help them remember that they're big, right. And I help people, you've reflected this back to me. And also it's a constant like thing that I am personally bumping up against is like, Oh, and here's another place where I'm afraid to be powerful and big. Meaning that language resonates for me because it's, because it's like, it's part of my evolution and the journey that I hold versus this crazy thing [00:58:00] resonates for you.
Because part of what you're helping people with is like the authenticity, right. It's like tapping into a kind of. Authenticity, meaning
the sandpaper shows up because it's, it's, it's our personal
Eva: evolution. Yes. Our personal
Kyley: journey. And so great. I actually kind of love, Oh, okay. Big doesn't. Right. Because of course, once you actually drop down beneath, there's no big or small. It just is. Yes. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. But, but I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. I think I'm just caught on this idea of, authentic you is dangerous. Most authentic you is dangerous.\ Why? What is she going to do that's so dangerous? What's the harm she's going to cause?
Eva: Okay. It's, I really sat with that. For a second. And, um, I, I see how it's all connected now. It's two part. It's that it's not at first it was like, it's not that [00:59:00] I'm going to cause harm. It's that I'm going to see that I'm unlovable. And it's not that I'm causing harm.
It's all you motherfuckers out there being like, I'm going to be my authentic self. And you guys, there's like, I perceive you as a threat. Um, that's kind of, that's how I experienced being unlovable is that I'm my authentic self and you guys aren't going to like it. Um, and therefore, therefore it doesn't feel safe.
Um, and that, and that, so that's like a, a lovable thing. Right. But then on the coattails of that, I was like, Oh, I see what's happening. Cause then I was like, what, what your question was like, what would happen, like what is dangerous. Right. If I was like my authentic self and I was like, Oh, well of course it just, you know, I have a big story about being selfish is one.
And then I was like, but that's not exactly it. And then I was like, Oh, I know. Duh, story of badness. Always comes back to that. Always. It's not [01:00:00] that, it's not that I'm dangerous. It's that like, yeah, I'm selfish. Maybe I'm egotistical. Maybe I'm, um,
Kyley: Authentic you is not good. You. Yeah. Like, and so she will just
Eva: inherently do destructive shit because if I'm, like, if I'm like big or something like that, it means, and I think, again, this speaks to some, my, my understanding is some sort of universality here.
It's like, it's like the people, the feeling that I've seen so many of my clients, it's like, oh, if I'm free, I can't be trusted because I'm gonna go out and do all this crazy shit. If I'm completely free, I'm gonna leave my family. I'm gonna spend all of my money. I'm gonna sit on the couch forever. I'm gonna cheat on my partner that we think that we are just gonna be bad if we're completely free.
It's very much the same. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And really what I'm taking out of this conversation is that like, when you say I have a fear of being powerful, I think for me, it's the same as like, I have a fear of being completely myself. I have a fear of being completely authentic because of these two things that I don't trust my own self, my internal goodness, right.
That I'm going to like do all those [01:01:00] things I just said, or, and that also I'm not lovable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Because the, the, when you get all the way down to the kernel, there's. There's something there's something rotten in the center, which is
Eva: why this This, this work of like self love has been such a theme through all of my work. And I think it is. If to me, I'm like, it's a part of all spiritual work. Right.
But, but like, you know, we have, I have around this course, like loving ourselves into power with Federico, it's about undoing the story of badness and shame and
Kyley: all of that. Yeah. Which listeners next time they run it, run to sign up for it because I took it. It was amazing.
Eva: I think we're finally going to do round two in the summer.
We'll see if our schedules. Okay. Yeah.
Kyley: We'll see you next time. Um,
I'm struck by, there's something that feels so heartbreaking in this, I think really [01:02:00] universal thing that it's not safe. It's not safe to be authentically me because basically like I'll ruin my whole life, you know?
Eva: But this is not. Yes. Yes. Like that. That is, it's painful. It's a really painful way to live.
And it's also what I think is for me for sure, but I actually think it's the work that everyone is doing is like to free ourselves of this, yeah, of this untrue, harmful way of living. We're thinking it's also because it's not different from being free. Like oftentimes I talk in my spiritual work about, it's about.
It's about total liberation, and it's like, what we all want, like, literally, it's all what we all want. We just want to be fucking free, whatever that means to us. And, but we're afraid to go [01:03:00] there because we, you know. Are afraid of the consequences. And so like, there's this roomie quote that has been really resonating with me recently.
It's just like blowing. It's just, it's like, I've read it a million times and then hearing it now, you know, sometimes it drops in deeper. And I think the quote is like, why do you stay in prison when the door is so wide open?
That's, that's been my experience recently in Brazil to just seeing so clearly how like I keep myself in prison and the door is right there.
Kyley: You know what I love? I also brought a roomie quote to our
Eva: I also brought a Rumi quote to our, our
Kyley: call. This is the first time we're both bringing, you know, source material.
And
Eva: it's both Rumi. Both
Kyley: Rumi. This is the quote that's been haunting me, which is, um, out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Eva: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That's also one of my favorites. I think I read that to you. I think I was the first [01:04:00] one to read that to you because I remember when I read it to you, I think I remember you getting like
Kyley: emotional.
Yeah, it's, it's something that's, it's a line that keeps giving me like deeper and deeper meaning, but I brought it here. Because I'm, I'm really struck by this, like, well, there's a right, there's right and there's wrong. And I have to do right. Like, I have to choose, I have to choose the path that is externally defined as right.
I'm really struck by this quote because it, it feels like a map to freedom, right?
Which is there's so much suffering in this idea that I have to choose right. And then if I, and there's punishment, and and suffering for choosing wrong. And it's actually the, it's actually the, it's actually the right versus wrong that makes us fucking crazy. Right. And that the freedom is like laying in this field [01:05:00] where we've just slipped out of the whole insane paradigm.
And that feels really scary because it feels defenseless somehow.
Eva: I experienced it as scary because we all have these rules because we think the rules keep us safe, because again, it's the. If I follow the rules, I'll do it right. And then I'll get this thing or like, I won't be cast out of love. But this is how you do it. This is how this is the rules are an illusion, like illusion to gives us the illusion of safety.
And so all of a sudden we don't have rules anymore. And we're like, what the fuck? This is a free for all. And then we go into chaos, which is your jam, which I love. It's like, that's, that's how I think some people experience chaos. How I used to experience chaos is chaos is scary. There's no rules. There's no right or wrong.
Wait, then what the fuck am I supposed to do? No one's going to tell me what to do like that. Yeah. Is scary. Yeah. Well, it's perceived as scary, but it's actually, I think when we actually get there and experience it. And in my own experience, when I [01:06:00] live this way, it's actually not scary at all.
Kyley: I think my experience, I mean, as someone who.
Loves to walk poetic about chaos. And if you haven't heard that before, the, you know, short version is chaos is the original matter of life, right? It's like the Greek term chaos is like, you know, is, is, uh, like the birth of creation, right? So chaos is like the frequency of life. And you look at a garden, it doesn't grow a forest and grow actually orderly.
There's tremendous order, but it's also order with as like, there's it's total chaos, right? There's not a linear thing. Um, and that our true essence is chaos and try to make ourselves rigid and linear and, you know, nine to five or whatever. And, and, and we are inherently inconsistent, chaotic, too much messy characters, [01:07:00] beings.
And I think there is so much freedom and joy in that, and I also do think it's terrifying. I think it's both. And the paradox is that it is both. It's not that we arrive at that. My experience is not that I embrace the like truth of chaos and, I'm not scared. It's just that I have access to more joy in and among the fear, as opposed to I'm fucking terrified over here clinging to my rule book.
It's just a, it's a, it's a more free and joyful fear, but I'm still afraid. I think that
Eva: is true, can be true. And I think that's also part of my experience. Well, sometimes that is my experience, but actually I think more so my experience is it's the resistance to chaos that is scary. And then once I'm like, can I allow things to be quote unquote, totally out of control?
And I like, there's no resistance to that exact. I actually see that there's nothing to [01:08:00] fear. Like, like my, again, and maybe this is, I've just seen, been seeing this so clearly in my life. It just keeps popping up. It's like, when I look at my fear directly in the face, it dissolves. It has no legs to stand on.
The thing that I thought was so scary doesn't even exist. And not only that, but this idea of chaos and falling into chaos and being completely out of control is so loving, so kind, and I'm completely fucking held in every moment. It's like, Benign.
Kyley: Okay. So I want to bring this back to the question of insanity because this feels like, because I know you, this feels like the kind of thing that you would, the UT that you want to hold space for.
And this feels like the kind of thing that you would want to then like, like, okay, I'm going to write the post. I'm going to write the post that says what you just said, like so beautifully and powerfully. Thank you for my necklace, birdie. Um, Thank you. What you just said, like, that brought tears to my eyes, I also know [01:09:00] the version of you who's like, okay, I'm going to write, I'm going to make a video, or I'm going to teach on this, or I'm going to make a module on it, and I can already see all the, like, kind of conditions and caveats and,
Eva: like, Yes!
Yes, people are going to get this, it's not going to make sense, they're going to think I'm insane, like, they're going to be like, what the fuck is this lady talking about? Like, she's, yeah. Mm
Kyley: hmm. And, In there, I think is the very first line you said, which is that, um, I'll make people uncomfortable and I think, and it's interesting because this is related to my breakthrough that I shared yesterday about alchemy, right?
Is that like, I have been I've been like trying to get you to come to this course so that you, you know, you'll make more money. And then like, ha, ha, it's unconditional love, bitches. Right. And, and so it's the same thing. Like I am, I'm doing the exact same thing. And, and I, I think, I know for me, it's because I'm afraid of rejection, but I am also afraid of making people uncomfortable.
Right. I'm afraid of that in, in someone misunderstanding my intention, they [01:10:00] will be like triggered by me. And they'll project that they'll get mad at me. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I want to make them like me. Right. And so, yes. I just think there's something interesting here about, um,
the, I'm feeling the power of our authenticity and the tremendous gift that is the on mass Eva has something really important to say about how we can be living. And then in the fear of insanity, it gets like patched up and like constrained and hid and masked and a version of it shows up, but it's,
it's a like thinner strand of that. And I'm, I'm in this moment just really struck how much,
how much we are robbed, right? Like we people in the world are [01:11:00] robbed by the experience of a lesser hidden you because.
What a gift to get the unvarnished you and what a gift to like have access to the full uncomfortable truth that you have to give us. Yes.
Eva: Yes. I've seen that clearly too. Not just that, like, yeah, I mean, I, yes, a hundred percent. I have seen how actually ungenerous it is to withhold. And I don't mean, and I don't mean, and there's like no, you know, arrogance in that.
It's this idea of like, what we all want first is to be seen and to, we want to be seen and heard, but also to let people see and hear us, like to really let people in. That is an act of love. And I, I know like that basically by not being authentic, whenever we are, that's, this is like the irony, right? This is why it's all an illusion.
It doesn't work. It's like, we think we're being helpful by following by [01:12:00] like people pleasing or whatever, following the rules, but actually that's more harmful and actually letting people that actually holds people at arm's length because you're saying like, I'm not going to really like let you see the full me and there's something so vulnerable.
And thus, Loving about saying like, Hey, like this is just, yeah, this is, I'm allowing, I'm allowing you to like, really see me. Yeah. Um, God, this is, yeah.
Kyley: Uh,
Eva: this is so good. I mean, I mean, you got, you got to go soon. So
Kyley: I have kids to bring to school, but I got, I got a little, a few more moments. Okay.
Eva: Well, I just, I just.
You said this was going to be a two parter. I think this might end up being a three or four parter
Kyley: because I know, I already have the topic for it. Okay, Kara, sorry, I'm
Eva: interrupting. Go ahead. Well, I just want to, yeah, like, want to, like, wind things down and make sure that we have time to do our joy since that is, like, tradition for us.
But, um Can I
Kyley: plant the seed for the thing that I want to talk about next? Next time, yes. On this, on this, um, because I think [01:13:00] this has been an incredible conversation about, yeah, this, like, unmasking thing. And I think the place where this insanity fear shows up. Loudest for me is, am I insane for, for my faith?
For your faith for believing like the things that I believe are possible because there is a big part of me that's like, you know, we can do some fucking big shit.
Eva: Oh my God. I'm so excited to dive into this one because that just, ah, that feels really exciting. That is,
Kyley: that is a really big, that's a really big, that's a really big one for me.
So
Eva: I think really relatable. And I think, I think a lot of people get a lot out of that conversation and also, yes, to me where I want to continue this conversation. So we're just sort of. It's previewing folks, listeners, like what's to come, but I want to actually trailers in the movie. Yes. The trail.
Exactly. Like, I kind of want to continue to dig into the original question of like, where does, where does craziness show up for us? Like, and I want to sort of make a [01:14:00] map I think for like, for, I think for a lot of our listeners, how they can relate maybe in different ways in flavors that are similar to ours and maybe different from ours.
But that feels important.
Kyley: Well, wouldn't it be fun if we did a retreat that was like, come lose your mind with us.
Eva: Oh my god, my jaw is open, folks. My jaw is open because I'm like, wait, is that the thing? Like, that would make so much sense if that ended up being like That would be very fun.
Kyley: All right, listeners, if you would like some, some creative endeavor beyond the podcast with me and Eva about losing your mind, let us know.
Shoot us a DM.
Eva: Oh my God. And then if you really want to lose your mind coming, like we can do this in Brazil in this dome because it is facilitating all letting go. Like this space is wild. Kylie, thank you so much. I mean, that was just the tip of the iceberg. I didn't know that's actually where we were going to go with this conversation that we would end up talking about authenticity and any, all of that.
I just want to say that that was so helpful for me. And I, again, just the tip of [01:15:00] the iceberg, cause I think I'm going to have to like leave this conversation thinking about.
Kyley: And I'm really struck too by the language thing because, um, I'm really struck because going in, I was like, oh, yeah, crazy shows up for me sometimes, but this authenticity piece is actually very alive and, and very much an edge for me.
And there's some, there is some real fear and alive. It's, it's alive for me right now. And so I'm, I'm struck by how powerful and crazy are, were, were our terms that each of us have a different relationship to, but that the thing underneath is actually the same and very alive.
Eva: Yes. Um, that's what I mean when I say that, like, I think this is a universal.
Um, I think anyway, it touches all of us in some form or another. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm actually a listener since we're going to do, make a whole series about this. If you have your own particular questions about [01:16:00] going crazy, losing your mind, your fears about it, shoot them to us and we'll fold them all in.
Eva: Yes, please. And please, yeah, if this, if you've ever had a fear of losing your mind or just going crazy or feeling. different and alone or hearing voices or however it shows up for you, share this episode with your friends, post it on all the things we would love. We would just love that. We'd love to be able to share this conversation with more people.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's one last thing that I want to share that feels like totally random, but this was an aha. I also had the other day, which is, um, there's a situation where I've been saying like, oh, I don't want to be hurt. You know, there's this place where I'm feeling vulnerable and I, um, and saying like, oh, I don't want to be hurt.
And then I realized, oh no, I don't want to suffer. And that was a really powerful distinction and I'm dropping it here because. Because that feels connected to me too, like, and to, [01:17:00] like, getting hurt versus suffering. I would also love to weave into our conversation on insanity because that distinction for me is my mind makes suffering, right?
In the stories and it's in stories and it's attachment. And like, and, and that feels crazy making, right? My stories and my attachments feel crazy making, and that creates a tremendous amount of suffering. But actually outside of suffering, like outside of that, outside of attachment and story, my heart's just open and sometimes my heart gets hurt and that's actually fine.
So that's, I'm just, I don't know, that feels like random, but it is alive and feels related to, I don't know, the vulnerability of unmasking, right? And of being authentic and it's fucking letting it come. Yeah. It's really beautiful. What's
Eva: bringing you joy, my love? Oh, okay. Oh, gosh. These days I feel very [01:18:00] blessed to have many iterations of joy, but I guess one that feels really alive for me right now is, um, I just got back from a long weekend in Floripa or Florianopolis, which is the closest city to where I live.
You know, I live in a very small town, but an hour and a half away, there's like not even an hour, 15 minutes, there's this bustling city. Um, And I met with Lucy, who's a listener of the podcast and who I'd never met before. And she joined, she came to the retreat, which was fucking awesome. And also Hale, who, um, I also knew from online and we met in person and I just love these wonderful connections that I get to make, like through my work.
And it's just so strange. And like the fact that I know people here in Brazil and, um, God, it was just such It's just such a beautiful weekend. It was all beach time, so much beach time, an amazing hike with a swim by like a water in a watering hole with a waterfall. And then like a awesome Brazil [01:19:00] pool party with just beautiful people and everyone's so friendly, like genuinely warm and inviting.
And it just feels like, you know, I just had many moments of like, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in Brazil, not like, holy shit, I'm in Brazil, but also I'm in a different world. And that feeling when you get, when you travel and you're just doing new things. And there's adventure and you're meeting new people and everything just feels really alive.
And I'm just like, yeah, that has brought me, um, yeah, a lot of aliveness and a lot of joy.
Kyley: Yeah. I'm so, I love that.
Eva: Yes. And I'm still doing, you know, listeners, you can't see me, I'm doing this thing where I'm, you know, Kylie's going to get to Brazil
Kyley: one day and I just cannot wait for that to happen. I can't wait either.
I can't wait either. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. What about you, friend?
My husband, he's just the best. We've been together now for over 20, for [01:20:00] 20 years, 21 years, yeah, 21, 20 years, 20 years in January. They're 20 year dating anniversary. Wow. Wow. Wild. Wild. Wild. Um, there's always some part of me that has to give the caveat that like, I wasn't trying to find my husband when I was 18.
You know, we dated for a decade and we're like, I guess we're gonna, I guess this is our thing. I guess we should have a party. Um, uh, we just, this really, really, really beautiful conversation this week that was the kind of thing that could have been the fight we've had a million times, but instead was this like really, it's like loving and generous.
Um, space holding conversation, and
I'm just really lucky. I'm lucky to be loved by this person. And it was like so generous and he fucking cares. And, uh, [01:21:00] I am, I'm just delighted by the opportunity to like, just be in this long relationship of deep care with this person who is just willing to see me through all of my evolutions and cares about my safety and my heart.
And. He wants us to build something really beautiful together and yeah, I'm just feel like I love this man.
Eva: Thank goodness. I like felt that in my belly. Like I feel like feeling a deep gratitude for the beautiful relationships we have in our life. Yeah. It's really what it's all about. Yeah, it really is.
Kyley: I mean, at this stage of my life, I've been with him more for more years than I have not. Right. Yeah. And um,
Eva: yeah.
And Nick is steady.
Kyley: He's a rock. Yeah, man. Yeah. Capricorns, man, y'all are great humans to love. Some of the best. [01:22:00] I,
Eva: um. Some may disagree with you, but I, I won't, I, I won't. They are wrong. They are
Kyley: wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, and I will share one of the, one of the like parts of this conversation with one of the really beautiful things that I saw was that there was this thing that I had been, that was my own thing that I had been projecting onto my husband and then like being mad at him for judging me.
And I was cracking up later because I was like, you know. If you would like to judge yourself and then project that onto somebody else, there is no one better than a Capricorn. Like go like, well, like that is like their like job, right? Like just like, Oh, I'm going to judge me, but I don't want to take responsibility for it.
So I'm going to pretend that you are judging me and they're Capricorns over there. Like I don't, you know, it's like, it's like resting bitch face. Like my thing that I know about, I feel like. With Capricorns is like, no, y'all like it's, it's not judgment. It's just, it's just rest. It's just like,
Eva: it's just how I am.
Yes. It's like,
Kyley: it's just the Capricorn tone of voice. If you want to make a judgment that's on you. [01:23:00]
Eva: I'm dead. That is hilarious and accurate.
Kyley: So we all are just projected. Capricorns are the best. And also if you have issues with them, it's just your own projections.
Eva: So that's fine. Great. Exactly. That's you.
And, and you're allowed to have that experience. Yeah, but it's not actually your Capricorn's fault. Yeah, exactly. Holding down the steady fort.
Kyley: We will see you all next week. Love you. I know. Okay.