This week on Hello, Universe Eva and Kyley discuss: ➖ The challenge of owning and sharing your spiritual work and lifestyle without fear of being a cliche ➖ The tension between authenticity and social expectations ➖ Letting go of external validation and trusting your own lived experience ➖ The freedom that comes from embracing who you are—without fear or the need to prove anything
This week on Hello, Universe Eva and Kyley discuss:
➖ The challenge of owning and sharing your spiritual work and lifestyle without fear of being a cliche
➖ The tension between authenticity and social expectations
➖ Letting go of external validation and trusting your own lived experience
➖ The freedom that comes from embracing who you are—without fear or the need to prove anything
Love is the power, Brazil
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https://www.kyleycaldwell.com/villain-era
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Quantum Leap Your Business - Free WorkshopAm I a spiritual cliche?
Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Eva here.
Kyley: It's Kyley.
Eva: Welcome back to Hello Universe.
Kyley: Okay. We have a very juicy topic. We had to stop talking 'cause we got so excited. Before we hit record, we're gonna talk about judgment, uh, self condemnation, and realizing that you're a walking cliche.
Eva: Yes, yes, yes. Uh, all things that I've avoided,
Eva: but I am coming turns with. Hopefully
Kyley: we will. We'll see. Right? Eva, introduce us to how this topic came to be, how it's alive for you right now.
Eva: [00:01:00] Well I messaged you Kyley, saying that I wanted to have a conversation about plant medicine and how I've been utilizing that as a bigger part of my spiritual journey since moving to Brazil. And that turned into sort of an inner. Excavation of like, oh, I think the reason I've been holding back on having that conversation more publicly, one reason, there's a few reasons, um, is that I was kind of embarrassed because I was like, I, I was embarrassed because I think I've had a prejudice against people, particularly these images come from social media mostly of like, people who, to me sounded so detached from reality.
Eva: Like uber hippie dippy, people, new age types who were like, uh, I'm one with the earth through plant medicine. And especially, you know, having these like an image of like white women from Colorado calling themselves shamans and being like, don't know, just annoying
Kyley: Those white women from Massachusetts who call themselves shamans, they.
Eva: see, [00:02:00] exactly. See, this is, this is the conversation that I wanna get into because I'm like, I have judgment towards white women who call themselves shamans. Yet my best friend is a white woman who I consider to be a very, I. Strong shaman and, and what I'm like noticing is how those, these two things like are bumping up against each other. Where, to the point where I'm like, oh, I think I've just been judge, I'm judgmental as fuck because of some fear I have of myself. Right? Anytime that we are judgmental of other people, I mean, I think there's a couple of things going on, but oftentimes it's like a fear of something that we may be, and we don't
Eva: wanna be that, and we don't have the freedom to be that.
Eva: And so when we see it in other people, we reject it and we judge it. Um, and I, you know, this isn't new. We've, I've talked about this on the podcast before, like there, I think we did this a good series on like, am I going crazy? And I highly recommend that to everybody. If you ever have thought on the spiritual path, like, am I going crazy like I
Kyley: and if you haven't, you just are not on the spiritual path yet, [00:03:00] so.
Eva: Yeah. Yes. But yeah, it's just this ongoing fear of mine, which I can see is slowly, you know, disintegrating, but still there in the sense of, like, I still have this story of like, I'm worried about being perceived a certain way. Um, and that's why I have judgment about other people, which is also why I feel like I can't openly share my stories of like my deepening spiritual excavation, y yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: and I, you brought this up and I was super jazz because it's, it has been very alive for me. I mean, I also have a lot of judgment about the White Lady shaman thing, right? Part of the reason I've started calling myself shaman, not necessarily because I. I'm confident it will be the final label, but because, um, I saw how much resistance I had to it, while knowing that's exactly what I fucking do and that there was no other, when it comes to ma the magic portion of what I do, there was no better term.
Kyley: And I was like going out of my way to [00:04:00] pick these other convoluted comp and it's like, it's right, it's right. He, it's right fucking here. Right. And so part of actually like naming shaman and calling like, you know, I have a new part offering that's called shamanic shadow work sessions. And part of that was because I could see how much judgment and hiding and like.
Kyley: You know, contortion was happening around. I was like, all right, just lean into the discomfort. Just fucking do it. Just, just like rip off the bandaid.
Eva: Yes,
Kyley: Um, which will either like allow it to, um, like be more com Well, either way it's more comfortably a mantle and to the point that then I don't need it as mantle.
Kyley: Or it's like, oh yeah, this has always been the, the label,
Eva: yes, yes. And I,
Kyley: good.
Eva: I think something that I took away from our conversation. From the, am I going crazy? Podcast is like, or a series was like, I don't remember if you said this or someone else had said this, but it was like one, it's like, you know, we, we did it. We had a great conversation about, you know, [00:05:00] being misunderstood and embracing the fact that we will be misunderstood no
Eva: matter what. I mean, just as people in general. But also I got, I got the clear takeaway of like, I need to be willing to be perceived as the thing that I hate most. And, and I think that's, yeah, that's the unfolding that's been happening. It was like, I need to be perceived as what I hate most and, and,
Kyley: Be willing to be. Right. You can't be in resistance
Eva: Yes, yes. And so for you, what I hear you saying that means you, you were just practicing that very in real time, is like you have resistance to claiming yourself as such as a shaman. You need to be willing to be perceived as the white woman from call calling herself a shot. Do you know what I.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting too because it's also, I think it's interesting when you lean into the discomfort around, [00:06:00] you know, for you talking about plant medicine, for me, some of my, you know, shamanic magic practices, if you will. It's, um, it's interesting if you lean into it, you start to notice where the discomfort actually is.
Kyley: Because you can, from a, if you, if you keep too far away, it's like you can paint it all with a broad strokes, but you lean in and it's been interesting to watch. Um, like for example, my whiteness doesn't feel particularly complicated as it relates to the term shaman at this moment. Right. Not, because it's not a complicated thing for a white lady to acclaim shaman, but because it just feels well, that part of it feels well integrated.
Kyley: Um, the part that I am uncomfortable about is that somehow people will perceive me as like trite and superficial.
Eva: Oh, interesting.
Eva: Why?
Kyley: I could explain more why, if you,[00:07:00]
Kyley: well, I think this is your point of being a cliche, right? I don't want people to, I, I am dynamic and rich and I have earned this by dying a thousand fucking times. I don't want you to think I'm a cliche, you know, like I don't wanna like fit tidy into a Portlandia episode.
Eva: Oh, okay. I, yes, yes. Okay. Yes. That's exactly it. It's the, well, I guess we're speaking to the same thing. Yeah. It's being perceived as okay. Wait, I'm a little bit lost. Can you help me see this connection? I'm not seeing why? Because you said you don't wanna be perceived as superficial. I don't understand why being a shaman would would mean that you're perce, you're superficial.
Kyley: Maybe you can help me understand, but I'm not totally clear. I mean, I'm not totally clear on why that's the point of like friction and, um, and, and there's, but there's definitely something about, [00:08:00] um, the reason I've been leaning into the term shaman is because, like I said, there's no better term that I have found for like my magic comes straight from the earth and from the void.
Kyley: It's not necessarily like from a, um. Modality, right? It's just raw earth magic. So that's shamanism. And also I'm really, really good at helping people fall down into what, in shaman terms you'd call the underworld, which in pop psychology we call the subconscious, right? It's, that's the, it's same thing. And so I'm really well versed at that particular kind of travel and journey work.
Kyley: Um, and so, and, and I know that that is a true term because like, I mean, because I have died so many times for it to be true, right? Like my magic comes from my own consistent cycles of death and rebirth for my astrology girl as I had Pluto in the first house, [00:09:00] which apparently is a sign that you are really obsessed with transformation.
Kyley: Um, and. So there's a part of me that's like really comfortable with the term, and I think that's where like my whiteness, for example, doesn't feel particularly complicated because I also would be very eager and open to have any conversations about privilege and de colonialism. Right? I don't have defensiveness around that.
Kyley: Also, coming from Celtic ancestry, it's like we're the one white colonized people with a memory of being colonized. So
Eva: Okay, so you have a little street cred. You got some
Kyley: yeah, I got like sneak in with like the barest, you know, with teeny drop of, uh.
Eva: That's hilarious. That is so funny. Okay. But I, I can I, I think what I'm hearing you say is, um, and I Okay. Is this idea of what fuels what your, the self-consciousness is coming from not having an embodied, like embodied deep honoring [00:10:00] of the practice and of sha like shamanism and your work. Not to say that it isn't fully embodied in you, because I experienced your magic and it's, it's like you couldn't not do it.
Eva: Like if you tried, it's just, it just emanates from you. Right. But it's like not owning and being really like, oh my God, and this is my own problem too. It's like, Hmm. And I think social media. For me, and I wonder if it's the same for you. Maybe like plays a big role into this is that we see these things on social media because we work in social media or even just like the general culture where practices like this are, um, watered down or made fun of or like, uh, yeah, just, just made fun of in a way where, do you know what I mean?
Eva: By made fun of? And then it's
Eva: like we, but I really think the power [00:11:00] for both of us and all of us lies and actually just remembering and claiming and actually like knowing and feeling your power separate from the stories that might swim in our general pop culture Instagram world.
Kyley: So this is interesting 'cause I think, I think you're giving yourself some useful information because the
Eva: Because I think this is how I feel. Yeah.
Kyley: because the making fun of piece doesn't, perhaps I'm disassociating, but the making fun of piece doesn't feel, um, that hot to me. It's, it's, and so I'm curious to hold, to hear more about that, I think for me.
Kyley: But you did say something that really helped me understand it. It's when I'm doing my work, I know exactly what I'm doing and I know exactly the space that I hold and I don't, you know, I have, I had a client message me the other day about like. Conflict in their si with their sisters. And I have other clients who are going through divorce and I have other clients who are like birthing new businesses.
Kyley: And it's like, it doesn't matter what you show up with, I [00:12:00] know exactly how to hold the space for the muck that's in the deeper underbelly and like making clearing path to something new. Um, and because so much of my practice of client work is this state of surrender, I also don't have to know. I just show up and then it, whatever needs to come, will come.
Kyley: And so in my personal practice, my personal, like being a human in the world feels deeply of a shamanic lineage in the sense that it's like I'm just gonna go off to my cave, die a bunch of times and then come back and offer you what came out of that. Um, it's actually like the public presentation of it that I have a lot of angst and not quite imposter syndrome, but like, it's like a smallness, it's like it's personal practice.
Kyley: Is the
Eva: No, it like, no problem. Yeah.
Kyley: right? Individual, like in the client holding size of the ocean public presentation, which does include social media. All of a sudden it's like, feels like this very [00:13:00] mousy. Like, I don't really know how to tell you what I do, and will you like me if I tell you and how do I explain?
Kyley: And all of a sudden, this feels new-ish. But yeah, it's just like that's where, it's not that I'm afraid of being made fun of, it's just like almost like I'm confused about how to even self present outside of this little whoop trip. Shrinking down.
Eva: Hmm. That's interesting because this isn't new. I mean meaning, and I'm sure you come across this in like business stuff all the time, but this is the conversation that you and I have that you're always helping me with essentially is like, and also if you are a business person listening to our podcast, I can almost guarantee like 75% of you have had this problem.
Eva: It's like the work that I do is so real and it's in my bones and it's changing fucking lives and I don't know how to talk about it. Is it.
Eva: Yeah.
Eva: it feels like it's that, it's that story of like, because how the fuck am I supposed to present something? Has no language and that's so like powerful [00:14:00] into like words that people can understand.
Kyley: Then as a result, I've watched how, I just don't, there's so many things that I just don't share. And this goes into also like where I think some fear judgment. Like y'all, I just talked to the fairies in my backyard like all the time. You know, they're telling me what to wear on my photo, photo shoot next
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: chit chat with fairies while I'm driving about what my outfit should be. That's weird and fun. And I don't want it to be any other way. And I don't, I don't speak those things. Like every time, every time the music gets really loud in my house, like the, the sound gets weird. One of my kids cracks up and is like, cloy did it.
Kyley: You know, like my, my whole world is very interwoven with this kind of. Mystical weird thing that I don't wanna be other, but to your point of fear of judgment, that I don't fully understand what the fear is of. I just don't. I just whoop, [00:15:00] don't share it. And then nobody, maybe a bit on the podcast, but outside the podcast, I don't really share it, and then nobody knows about it, and then nobody knows that's what I do.
Kyley: And then I'm wondering why nobody knows what I do.
Eva: Right. Well, I think it's really, this is interesting for me to witness you experiencing, 'cause I would say this is new for, it's because you're, I think this is. Happening because of the transformation you're going through.
Eva: Um, and I think this is actually really common that whenever we go through a transformation in our business, it's like, okay, like how do we, how do we talk about it?
Eva: It's not like quite solidified yet.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And I would also say, and it's so funny for me to say this to you because this is, I feel like what you, you would say to me because I have this problem all the time, is it's an, it's like not owning
Eva: what you do.
Eva: And so what I mean by that, it's like, it is a personal power thing.
Eva: And also [00:16:00] I think there is a, a sense of like being misunderstood. Like, am I, I'm gonna say this thing and are people even gonna get it? Is it gonna fucking make sense? And I think there's like different ways that we can meet that, but one of the ways is like also being so just like. Embodied that it doesn't fucking matter if it makes sense, like, because if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to everybody else.
Eva: It's like, and you've told me that. You know what I mean? So it's like, what I mean by this is like full embodiment, like 100% no separation between you and what you do and like, you know your work and your magic.
Kyley: And I think you're real. This is very helpful. Thank you. I think I'm less afraid of being misunderstood. I think. I think I'm more afraid to my point of superficial, it's like Pluto in the first house, self known, and Scorpio like a girl likes to fucking die. Right? And like be reborn. And I think that I'm actually afraid that you all won't see that I will come out and be like.
Kyley: Hey, I'm this magic [00:17:00] transformational person who talks to the fairies in her backyard, and you'll all be like, no, she's flighty. As opposed to like, no, I am like of the fucking earth like I am involved. Right? It's like I want people to see how deep I am, and actually to your point, I have to lean into the fact that like, oh, people might think I'm a fucking space cadet.
Eva: Oh, okay. Okay. This is where we are converging back onto the same
Eva: page because essentially what I'm hearing you say is like, it's, it's not, you're gonna be, this is a version of being misunderstood. So
Eva: you were, you were the first person to tell me that I had a thing about like, being misunderstood. And that didn't land for me at first.
Eva: 'cause I was like, no, it's not that I, I'm afraid they're gonna, it, it's like, it, it's not that they're going to see me incorrectly. It was that they weren't going to understand. But not understanding is still a fear of being misunderstood. Like, I'm trying to say, I do a but you think I do Z and I'm like over here being like, no, no, no, but I need you to understand like, my a is is this.
Eva: And, and also of course I think it's, it's like the [00:18:00] bomb and it's fucking, you know, powerful, blah blah, la la la, la. But people think it's like airy fairy new age shit, you know? And that
Kyley: Yes. Million times and I've.
Eva: Welcome, welcome to my world. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know it's not a fun one. It's not a fun one. But actually as I can actually see now in this moment, which is like so lovely, is like how this is all for me and therefore how it's all for us. Because it has been a really beautiful process in like owning myself and freedom and, and all the things that we've talked about, about like being, and you know, allowing myself to be misunderstood and not waiting to be recognized.
Eva: That, you know, it comes from recognizing myself first. Like there's so much juicy, empowerment, freedom, and play that can [00:19:00] come from this we are, you know, shedding and learning.
Eva: Because I do think that I've found there's obviously still here, knots here, which is why we're having this podcast. And I also do think I've found like so much liberation.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. And there's so much more to uncover that we'll uncover in this podcast, but, um, in this episode, I think. But, but and you know, you said like, I don't want to be perceived as like a Portlandia episode. And that's how, that's it. It's like, that's how I feel all the time is like, that's what I mean when I say like, I am so resistant, like to becoming that fucking spiritual cliche. Oh. Which I noticed that I totally am. And like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and I think part of the healing for me in this moment might also be owning that, [00:20:00] that, I'm
Eva: a cliche and like, and how funny and. Fun is that actually when I'm no longer in resistance to it.
Kyley: Okay. Say more about this, just like realizing you're a cliche and letting it, because you've talked about this before when you went to your Byron Katie retreat, so this feels like a reemerging theme, and it was very juicy then
Eva: Okay. So you like read my mind because I wanted to like connect that conversation. Um, okay. What I mean by cliche, so this just came up really recently where, uh, my partner Tom and I were laughing our heads off. So just recently we, we released an episode where I shared openly about this relationship that I'm in. I highly recommend that you listen to that one personally is one of my favorites because I'm really happy with how it went. 'cause I was so nervous about it. But, so, you know, I'm dating this man who's like, we're just a fucking walking cliche. Okay. So he's 26 feels older than me. He's a surfer, long, long, [00:21:00] long speech, bum hair, spiritual teacher, dating a younger woman. Like were just cracking up like how he is a total fucking cliche. And he never thought that he was gonna be this way because this wasn't his way of life, his whole life. You know what I mean? Like,
Kyley: Yeah. He didn't set out to, yeah.
Eva: not only that, but because like as we at, like you and I at, you know, almost, you know, around 40 years of age, look at how many lifetimes you've already lived. You know, like our college versions of us, like, um, you know, our twenties and our thirties. Like I, I was a fucking anarchist like hunk rock girl who like, was an alcoholic and doing cocaine, you know, like I've had many versions.
Eva: I had the, the punk rock version in, in Philly, and then I had my like, cocaine workaholic party girl in New York, you know, like, and then now anyway, so like, then just I, and I share all that because. Just seeing all his lifetimes too. It's like we have, we all have a gazillion lifetimes in our, in this one beautiful life that [00:22:00] we've had.
Eva: And so, you know, he had, he was married with two kids and was like very much a family man, short hair, responsible, serious, like very dedicated meditator, like all of that. And, and then now, you know, here he is filling all the, checking off all the boxes. And then here I am, uh, like digital nomad girl. Like I just, and I, and I see this image of a cringe of like the person who like annoys me on Instagram, who's like showing off her like digital nomad life, which I don't know why, but just always really annoys me who's, how am I a cliche dating an older, older man like now?
Eva: Like, you know, I'm trying to think of all the ways I am a cliche, like, uh, uh, living in the jungle of Brazil that really sort of adds to the whole sort of like vibe and like doing plant medicine. I. I don't know. Uh, you know, in the jungle, I, I just feel like [00:23:00] the thing that I hate most are these spiritual influencers essentially, that I see on Instagram. That's, that's, that's the picture that I'm trying to paint of a cliche of like, what I don't wanna be. And I spend so much of my energy fighting, being a cliche, being like, I'm not that. I'm not that. Like, I don't wanna be like, I'm not like those people. And then I like just saw really clear the other day, like, I am all of those fucking things. And it was hilarious to me. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, kill, hilarious, and like, wait, I don't know. Hilarious. Because I don't, because so, so what? You know, like I don't have to, to, to fight it. when I can actually see the truth of that, really comical. I.
Kyley: You are helping me see too that the thing that I hate most both when I'm wearing my business coaching hat, uh, and in my, you know, [00:24:00] spiritual, which it's the same thing. Everybody, everyone here knows that, um. It's dis, it's disembodied practitioners that make me fucking, like, I can feel my blood boiling at this idea of the irresponsibility of disembodied practitioners.
Kyley: Right. Whether it is, you know, whatever it is that you're holding space for. Oh yeah. I can like feel how hot and angry I'm getting. It's like you have no fucking right to coach people on something that you have not lived a thousand times that isn't like the kind of wisdom that lives in your body. Like you're manipulating people, you're stealing.
Kyley: I mean, I like can feel how hot I'm getting. And so I am, I think, really afraid of being perceived as a phony because I'm really afraid of being perceived as like disingenuous.
Eva: Of course that's the same, that's the same
Eva: thing that I think a lot of people feel in this, in our business world, but that's, that's okay. This is like the, the juice up I think of the conversation is like what we judge in other people. We're only [00:25:00] judging them because we're afraid that it also lives within us.
Eva: It's like, it's something that we we're like, we're afraid that, like that, that we're insecure. I think actually that like this might also live within us and then when we see none other people, like it triggers us because we're like, first of all, there is, there's like some sort of self-judgment there or like insecurity there, but there's also a rejection of the self.
Eva: 'cause it's saying I cannot be this way. Like I, I'm not, it's also it's, it is actually I think a very. That and vi like form of like a little bit of self combination, a little like subtly violent. It's saying like I can't be this.
Eva: And I think anytime we don't allow ourselves to also be that thing, that thing that we hate the most actually.
Eva: Like this is the irony, the thing that we hate the most. It's not welcoming [00:26:00] like all parts of ourselves.
Eva: And then we really reject it in other people and we judge other people for it. And that is actually so, and the reason I wanna have this conversation is because I saw that so clearly and I'm like gonna get emotional about this is like I saw actually like how painful that was.
Eva: But like I keep using this phrase of like subtly violent. It was me being an asshole
Eva: to these people who I don't even know. And there's a hierarchy, a little bit of like, I am better than you.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: against everything that I believe, Kyley. It goes against what I really believe, which is like humanity, like connection and humanity and love and welcoming, and that we're not separate and there is no hierarchy.
Eva: You know, like I preach all this stuff about love and I see myself going through the world not loving,
Eva: like not being loved, and that's painful.
Eva: And so like, [00:27:00] I, ooh, so I actually wrote a list. Can I be like, I was, I wrote a list of all the people who like, I've judged and I want to share it with you. But, um, but, but before I read that list, I, I think Kyley, you referenced. This episode about Byron Kaley Kite, Brian Katie that we did months ago where I went to a Byron Katie retreat. And one of the, my takeaways was seeing like when the perpetrator had become, no, the perpetrator had become the perpetrator, meaning when I was me, who I thought myself as a victim, where I was actually the one causing harm. And that was like really painful to see, but also the most liberating and the most helpful.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, okay. So you ready for this list?
Eva: All right folks, [00:28:00] so I'm just gonna lay it all out. And I wanna actually say though that this is like very healing for me, even though it's like airing my dirty laundry. I mean, I'm gonna start with the people who I don't judge who I previously like righteously or like, these are my people, but it's like, I don't judge sex work, sex workers.
Eva: I don't judge social justice people. I don't judge people who are previously incarcerated. Like, 'cause I'm like, I think I, I have this liberal agenda where I'm like, I'm really like for the fucking people. And it's, it is that liberalism that is toxic that we see, you know, like where it's like I'm for these people but I'm just as violent, but I'm like violent to billionaires. Do you know what I mean? And I don't actually think that's a fucking answer. It's not, that isn't us versus them mentality. So, and billionaires are on my list. So these are the people who I almost like want to apologize for, for having been so judgmental towards and like, again, that subtle and energy of like violence. So influencers of any kind, [00:29:00] especially especially spiritual influencers, tech bros. Older men who date younger women. And that's like a huge, huge one for me because Kyley, you will not believe how judgmental this is what I mean, I was so judgmental of older. Like,
Kyley: A sense of humor.
Eva: like 'cause, but like seriously, like I scan for it now because it's in my reality, but, but if you like look for it Kyley, like you will see things in social media where you're like, see some story about like some older rich guy dating some like younger girl.
Eva: And then there's like all this slander against how this is so inappropriate because like men are taking advantage of like women or like men don't grow up and they can't, uh, they're always gonna live in like Peter Pan land or whatever. And I used to believe that obviously like not obviously, but I could see why I would believe that until now, here I am humbly becoming that person. And it's not that, and like this is, this is what I mean that's so helpful is that like my relationship with Tom is so not that, that it's opened [00:30:00] my eyes to the fact that like, wait, maybe. I've just been judgemental of other people's relationships when I don't know what the fuck is going on. Do you know what I mean?
Eva: Like, it's so humbling. Okay. What else? Who else have I had condemned? Um, okay. Oh, actually you really helped me with this one. So I don't, this is like very early on in our show, but I had made a remark about that was very like, man hating where I blamed men. And you actually said something so compassionate because you have a son. You, I saw that really clearly. Like you have a son and you have Desi and you actually pointed out to me in a way that like, men are actually victims of the patriarchy too.
Eva: And I was, and I had this sort of like, man hating feminist energy that was not helpful. And I think this is like such a beautiful example of that when it's like the us versus them mentality versus like, no, it's a we
Eva: [00:31:00] like, we're all suffering, we're all victims.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is not to say men don't have. Crazy amounts of privilege, but that privilege comes at a fucking cost, which is like, they're not allowed any emotion except for anger,
Eva: Yes, yes, exactly. But, and so, like, the thing about this list is like, this doesn't mean that I agree with everything that you do. This doesn't mean that I don't fight against things that I don't, I disagree with. It doesn't mean that I don't, uh, like that I just let people walk all over me or that, uh, if, uh, you know, that like, that I, that I, um, give you a pass for.
Eva: If you do something that I totally disagree with, it doesn't mean I'm not gonna argue with you. It just means that I don't need to treat you like the enemy. It can be neutral. Like this is what I'm finding to be like so free. It's like, 'cause judgment is actually so painful.
Eva: Like when I feel like we really track it, it's like so painful. And it is this. [00:32:00] War that happens me against you? Uh, me versus you. You know, I dunno if you've heard that quote before. There's a quote that says, like, the first person to suffer when you judge someone is yourself. And I've noticed that really, really, like, obviously when I observed me judging other people, it's like, I'm suffering because I'm feeling like there's a separation. So, uh, I don't know where I was going with that. Oh, yeah. Just that there, that this, that there can be a neutrality there and that's actually stronger. You know, like when I'm mad at a politician and I'm like, I just like wanna like, like shake the shit out of you because I'm so angry at what you're doing.
Eva: And she's like, ah. Like, I'm totally outta my mind. You know what I mean? Because I'm so fucking overwhelmed with. Emotion that I'm so outta my goddamn mind thinking about these politicians that I can't stand. Whereas I actually think I'm more in my power when I'm like in a neutral place of like, I don't just, I do not agree with what you're doing, and I have like [00:33:00] the wits about me to act skillfully.
Kyley: Um, oh, this is interesting because I was writing down as you were talking, so we're talking about judgment and I was in my head kind of forming a Venn diagram of what are the emotions that like butt into judgment, right? Because I'm noticing. There's some places where my judgment is pissed. Like when I was getting all hot about like practitioners who are out of integrity and just fucking stealing people's money and, and completely tracking that.
Kyley: There's some, there's, there's some in like the level of frustration that I have, especially as someone who hasn't been fucked over by a coach. Like there's clearly some level of self condemnation that's happening for me to have that level of iron. Um, and then there's also in judgment, I think another end of the spectrum or like emotional bubble [00:34:00] that's about jealousy.
Eva: Mm,
Kyley: And like, I think there's also judgment that's like jealousy that, um, yeah, you have something I can't have. And so I'm, I'm judging like there's just judgment that comes in, um, and
Eva: such a good point.
Kyley: right.
Eva: such a good point. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: It's like, and you know what? I can't fucking have it since I don't think I can have it. I'll just hate on you for having it, right?
Eva: Okay. And this speaks to the fear that I've had about sharing my joys, because like, oh God. And this sounds so, uh, forgive me dear listeners. 'cause it sounds so, I'm, I'm so terrified that this is gonna sound so arrogant, but, but because I know like sometimes. Like these people are hated, like people who are, I don't even know if I wanna say this anyway, like, I'm just afraid of sharing my like, bright spots sometimes, because I don't want people to hate me because they're annoyed because I'm living in the jungle.
Eva: Like I [00:35:00] don't off, I don't know what I perceive to be like the dream. There's a lot of
Eva: arrogance there, by the way, because a lot of people are like, that's like the last thing that I wanna do. You know what I mean? Like, they're like, your life is not, is is the, is far from ideal from mine, but, but I think there's some arrogance there and I'm like, I think my life is really wonderful and I'm afraid that if I share it, people are gonna be annoyed.
Kyley: I think sure. But I think more is that this perception, this fear that if I'm really, really joyful and I share my joy, people won't like it. So yes, the yes to the story about like my life versus somebody else's life, but I, I think the, the bigger thing you're speaking to is like, if I'm really joyful, people are gonna hate me for that.
Kyley: And I had a similar, I had a, a parallel experience. Um, so today I was lucky enough to be invited to, um, help this woman who's launching this really beautiful local membership and, um, she asked me to like, lead a guided meditation and activation. There were like, you know, hundreds of people on this call. It was really, really, um, um, and everyone on this call, [00:36:00] a lot of people in there were there own powerful healers in their own right.
Kyley: So it was really jazzed to be able to be there. And, you know, everyone's mascara got ruined and it was, you know, I
Eva: Oh, good.
Kyley: because that's what I fucking do, right? And I got off the call and it was like a really great experience and I got off the call and I watched how much I just, I just saw how
Kyley: I had, I had no like, emotion, negative, emotional reaction. It was just like a great experience. But I watched how there's these parts of me that still don't really wanna just let me be a big deal. Like I had. It's this really bizarre. So it's kind of connected to your joy thing. I think my version in this iteration, in this moment is like.
Kyley: I'm a, I'm a big deal. Like I will fuck you up. I will change your life in a re you step into a container with me. You will not walk out the same, whether it's a single session or a year and a half. Like we're gonna fuck, we're gonna fuck stuff up in a really great way. And, and there's this fear that if I just let that be true without [00:37:00] disclaimers, without hiding, without that little mouse feeling, I don't really know what I do thing, um, then you'll all be pissed because I'm intimidating and then I'll be rejected.
Kyley: 'cause like I, you know, what does she think she is to like be so
Eva: it's, it's a, it's the who do you think she is, or who do I think I am? Fear of being too much.
Kyley: And I think, I think in there is for me is a knowing. Good. You wanna say something? Go ahead.
Eva: I'm just like, I just got a hit of like, how, how, how frustrated I get because. There is a certain brainwashing I think that happens. It's like we all want this, like freedom, greatness or whatever you wanna call it, but there's this brainwashing that we have that actually it's not safe to go there.
Eva: And the best way to be happy is to stay close to the herd, which is like, we all just stay the same. Like nobody can like, don't have too much or be too much. Like, because the way for us to be safe and not be cast out of love is we all just need to be
Eva: like,
Kyley: [00:38:00] Yeah.
Eva: I don't wanna say medi mediocrity, but it's, it is a sense of like, we just all need to be the same.
Eva: Same. And we have to, and we have need equal, equal levels of everything. Equal levels of success, equal levels of happiness, equal levels of money. Like don't stray too far.
Kyley: Going straight too far. Oh my God. Right. And like literally your whole story is like, where's the fucking path? I don't know. I left it a long time ago. Right.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Uh. That's really interesting. And I think what I'm watching is, um, I've been getting a lot of like psychic hits or even like, I got a reading recently and one of the main themes that came out was like, so you intimidate people and you just have to fucking deal with that.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And I can feel how much my body is like, but no, I'm just like, I'm just nice
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: but actually the truth is, even when I'm just trying to be nice, I'm still fucking intimidating people. So just stop trying to be other, like, like, so for you, right, there's this, [00:39:00] there's this realization of like, my joy, what of my joy is triggering?
Kyley: And you know what? Whether you try to hide it or whether you put it in front and center, your joy is gonna fucking trigger people, right? Like, I am intimidating. I hate that I'm saying that out loud. I have so much resistance in my body saying that out loud. Ugh. But um. Yeah, but I, I just think that that's, like, that's definitely part of this edge for me in this moment is like, all right, well, and for both of us is one side of this feels like it's leaning into cliche and the other side of it feels like it's leaning into, um, I don't know how to put the words to it, but
Kyley: Yeah. Being like bigger than the cliche.
Eva: Oh, totally. Or I would say more for me, what, what I have experienced is like looking at all the stories of cliche and seeing that like they're so, they're so, the energy of these cliches is like [00:40:00] feathery, like they're so without substance. It's just concepts. It's just mind. It's all just mind, mind, mind, mind.
Eva: Mind. Versus the experience of what I think what you and I are, what you have spoke to previously of like, your work is just like, it's in your fucking bones and happens. It's like you don't even have to think about it. It's just, you just know it. You know it. And, and I've had that experience of also just like, yeah, I get these, these, these are all concepts that like, I get lost in when I'm in my mind.
Eva: But my experience and my, my lived experience is so different from that, that it feels so embodied that I'm not even thinking about the stories. You know what I mean? It's like they're kind of funny, but what? But it's like I can be, I've experienced moments of just being so free from the stories because I'm just living my life and it's so real and it's so true, and it's so authentic that the stories don't even like, have space to exist.
Eva: And then they come, they come back in. You know what I mean? But I think it's just about being like so [00:41:00] embodied, but not from a forceful place. Not because you're trying just like. The, The, full being of who you are, either the stories like fall away or like, or you can laugh at them or they're not even in your consciousness anymore 'cause you don't really care.
Kyley: I have a question for you. One of the things that I think sometimes is tricky for me and probably why I'm, my domain is the subconscious is I feel like my stories. Mm.
Kyley: I feel like my inner monologue is not that unkind. Right. I don't, I don't,
Eva: Wait, your all is not unkind.
Kyley: not hot on it's, it's not like I don't. When you're talking about these stories falling away. Yes, that's true. And also like this thing about getting, realizing like I, I have to just accept that I'm intimidating. I don't have stories that I'm afraid to be, like I don't have conscious stories that I can point to that I'm afraid of being [00:42:00] intimidating.
Kyley: since it's been brought to my awareness, I can see, 'cause I can feel in my body how much that's true and, and how much that's part of this. Like, don't tell people what you really do, but sometimes it's tricky because I don't the tell there's not a story that like, there's not a story that's a tell. Do you, do you understand what I'm trying to speak to?
Kyley: Like you're speaking really powerfully to this experience of like letting the stories fall away and they're just feathery. And they're insubstantial. And I guess I'm wondering about the times where we're being run by stories, but we don't even know what the story is. Does this, do I making sense?
Eva: Oh yes, totally. And I think that's like the beginning phase. Uh, everyone has like a different way. So like, this isn't universal, but I think what you're speaking to is when some, when the unconscious hasn't been, when the unconscious hasn't been brought to the conscious level yet, which is why the noticing of the negative is the greatest positive.
Eva: As [00:43:00] you've heard me say a million times, Vernon Howard quote, like, because it's, you know, it's there, like you just said, it's in your body, but it isn't, hasn't been brought to the conscious level. I think it's being brought to the conscious level now. Um, and I actually think it's one, it's brought to the conscious level that it's ready to be released. Because if it's not, if it's a, if it hasn't been brought up yet, well one, like how can you release it? But also, I actually think like that's what's so kind about all these things. What I notice is that anything, anytime a discomfort comes up or like a limitation comes up, I don't see it as a problem. I see it as a like, oh good.
Eva: Because if it's come up to the unconscious level, it's, it's ready to be released.
Kyley: Mm, I love that. I love that reminder. I've felt my whole body soften. Like yeah, it will just come, it will just rise up to the surface. That's, it's all living underneath and then it rises up to the surface. Then the, and, [00:44:00] and then you can, and then you can start to pick off the stories. 'cause once it, once it rises up to the surface, then you start to see all the stories.
Kyley: Uh, yeah.
Eva: But your body will tell you though, also as well, it's like, like, it just basically, it's like, it's like you, you, you do what you do so well, which is like, you go into the body and there's some investigation happening, and then all of a sudden you'll get like an aha and you're like, oh, like, yeah. The, the body will sometimes tell you, or spirit will sometimes tell you, like there's all these different ways where things become more conscious, but it's, yeah.
Eva: But I also agree with what you're saying. It's like also it can happen organically.
Kyley: And I think what, what I'm really pointing to is I think there's a part of me that's like, oh, I'm so sick of this. Like, you know, I, you know, listeners, I've been in a dark head soul for nine months. Okay? I am fucking over.
Kyley: And like I'm now at, I, I think we'll find out. We'll find out. Um, but I think I'm at the part, you know, I'm, I'm like, you know, like [00:45:00] light at the end of the tunnel.
Kyley: You know, you, you're almost home in the long car ride and you really fucking have to pee. So I think part of what's happening is the me that's like, how away, hurry this up. I'm done. I don't like this anymore. And once again, what you're reminding me is chill baby girl. The unconscious will be brought to the conscious, has nothing for you to do except for observe and witness and let go.
Eva: Yeah. Observe, witness, let go. But I would also say, and actually I'm really curious to know what you think about this. 'cause this might be like too mind oriented and you know that I like very mind oriented. But I know you've heard me say before, like, tension is a, is our friend because it shows us where. Something's out of alignment or when we're like thinking and believing something that's not true. So I also think, but I guess what I just mean is like, yeah, observation, but it's also observation of like tension. Letting tension, any kind of tension, show you [00:46:00] like what it is that you're thinking and believing or feeling,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and I think that helps clarify, or that's how, actually, that's how I bring things from the unconscious level to the conscious level.
Kyley: Yes. I think I'm just spec, I'm watching the part of me that thinks she has to go on like an investigative, like she's got her pickax and
Eva: Uhhuh. I
Kyley: dig boss.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Kyley: As opposed to the tension, right? The tension or the prompt or the trigger. Like it'll just, you'll know
Eva: yeah.
Eva: And there's like an allowing that happens. That's, yeah. That's
Eva: you not being okay. Yeah. You not doing it all.
Eva: Okay. Wait, can I, can I finish reading my list? Because
Kyley: Oh my gosh. Yes,
Eva: I, because I really love it and I do almost wanna say like a public apology. Also, like my journey with these people isn't done.
Eva: I'm still gonna judge them probably, and that that'll be like my stuff to work through, but, okay. Anyway, so I talked about men, uh, digital nomads who I think are very, like, showy about their life specifically.
Eva: [00:47:00] Um,
Kyley: interesting. Tell.
Eva: yes. Um, trophy wives, sugar baby babies, uh, like again, white women, plant medicine guides. Uh, people who've gotten like a ton of plastic surgery billionaires, boss babes.
Eva: Like, that's a whole thing where I'm like, really annoy, you know, for, there's this, there's almost this like antis backlash towards Boss Babes when
Eva: previously, you know, we, that was like a whole thing, but now it's like, oh, boss babes are annoying and, and I apologize for having judged you. Um, like yeah, business coaches, but like, I would say business coaches that are out of alignment or out of integrity. Um, but you spoke to. I, I feel like me judging them, yeah, there's almost like a, a compassion there. And it doesn't mean that I agree with you. It doesn't mean that I want you to swindle me or other people, but I actually feel like I can see that you're just doing the [00:48:00] best that you like, you are doing the best that you can, that you think in your current level of consciousness that that is the best thing. And I don't know, I almost, I, I have a sense of like, I don't agree with what you're doing, but holding this space of, I don't know, compassion maybe just feels like it would allow, if I would ever like have a conversation with someone like this, it would allow for progress rather than like finger pointing and blaming. Um, oh, Republicans. Yeah, anti-vaxxers and people who have been remarried a million times.
Kyley: Hmm,
Eva: that,
Kyley: go ahead.
Eva: yeah, that's the end of my list.
Eva: I, I mean, I'm sure I can add to that, but the anti-vaxxers one is really interesting too. Like, like how?
Eva: How,
Kyley: listen to the podcast who do not vaccinate. Yeah.
Eva: [00:49:00] yeah, exactly. And also like how judgmental was I when I was going through that, like covid period where everything was so on fire and it was like, you know, like everything was just so inflamed. There was so much like us against them, finger pointing and blah, blah, blah, and like a lot of righteous indignation
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: that I'm guilty of that.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: You know what I think is interesting listening to your list is how there are some that I could feel like, oh yeah, fuck them. Like the, you know, thing out of alignment stuff. Um, but then others that I feel like. Complete neutrality about like, like people who get a lot of plastic surgery. I'm like, I can't understand, and this is not judgment yours, I'm fascinated by watching the different responses I had or so a lot of plastic surgery.
Kyley: I'm like, why would I give a fuck? Like, I can't even understand why I would care. And when you're talking about people being really show, like social media influencers being really showy, my heartfelt feeling is like, yeah, go get it, girl. Like, just like totally jazzed [00:50:00] for, you know, like, yeah, go get your go, get your bag.
Kyley: Have fun, enjoy. T
Eva: Yes. Wait, what about billionaires? What's your reaction to billionaires and Republicans?
Kyley: Republicans is interesting, uh, because even that feels like not a monolith, right? Like, you know, we're listening, we're recording this listeners in the summer, so like, you know, we're newly in BRAT Summer
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: or Kamala Harris, but, uh. Which is, I know, interesting to have enthusiasm for something happening in politics for the first time in a long time.
Kyley: Anyway, um, I, like, I have a whole spectrum of experiences because, uh, it, it's, it's in my, it's in my home, not my home, but in my fa like in my family, like many people. And so I've had to like watch people who I love, like fall in love with Donald Trump. And I've gone through a whole range of [00:51:00] emotions and, and rage and grief about that.
Kyley: You know, the whole thing of like waltz's, uh, every millennials like dad that she lost Trump saying, right? Um, and, and I think I have a, I have a boundaried compassion for like, I'm not interested in excusing racism or, you know, perpe like, uh, supporting people who perpetrate harm and. I can really compassionately see the ways in which people were told a certain set of stories about what was gonna happen for them and then it didn't happen.
Kyley: And then some rich douchey guy from New York comes along and is vindicating to their personal story. And I can see the allure of
Eva: Yes. Okay. So boundary and compassion. Thank you for that language, because I think that's exactly what I'm speaking to is like that is, I think that's actually like very healthy [00:52:00] and more evolved than what I was previously experiencing, which is very much like, yeah, the woke liberal agenda in some ways, you know? Or, or just the whole, like, someone needs to be blamed and it's us for me versus, you know, us versus them. Like that whole dialogue.
Kyley: In the boundary of compassion. Like again, we're listening, we're recording this in the summer, and so there's been like, JK Rowling's been making all these gross comments about this woman boxer, right? And so, um, like, fuck JK Rowling, right? Like she can go fuck herself. She, my kids will not, we're not reading Harry Potter.
Kyley: There's plenty of other great fantasy books in the world. Like, we don't, we don't need, we don't need you. Um, and so part of the boundary compassion is like, I have like no interest in engaging with this women. And I think she's disgusting. And, and, and, and, and so it's not, it's not,
Eva: but it doesn't seem charged. It's not like you're, like, it's not, you don't, you don't seem, it's not the same reaction as you're talking about to, um, that you had to business [00:53:00] coaches who were scammers or whatever. It didn't, it didn't ha, it didn't like. When you talked about that, I almost got a sense of like, it, China takes our power away when we get that triggered, you know what I mean? But whereas I think what you're speaking to with j JK Rowling is like, it's like a very, it's, it's very decisive, but there's also a neutrality to it.
Kyley: it, well, yeah, there's like a, I have a,
Eva: yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
Kyley: I have a kind of empowerment about how like, not interested think your gross not buying your books. It's the, again, the boundary is like clear. Um, but I wanna like comp maybe complicate what you're saying about getting charged because I think, and I, I mean I think you would agree with this, but like the charge.
Kyley: It is helpful because it's pointing to something important, right? Like I'm a cis woman. If I were trans, I imagine that I would not have the same easy, neutral, boundaried relationship to JK [00:54:00] Rowling's toxicity, right? Because it would touch on some really meaningful and wounds that deserve validation. And so like the, the, the level of charge that I feel about my per perceived out of alignment business coaches like that charge is, is important
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: it's we to something that, that is asking for attention.
Kyley: And so it doesn't benefit us to, and I don't think you're saying this, I'm just adding onto what you're saying, like it doesn't benefit us to then just try to opt out of the charge because it's, it matters, but it also doesn't serve us to live in the charge.
Eva: I think you're speaking to something so important. Maybe this is like the next part, which I, that, that yeah. Really deserves some attention, is like, I wanna make it clear that like, the charge is our friend, like the charge is here for us. It, it isn't something that we like get rid of. It is here to show us, well, basically what you just said, show us something. Something that needs to be healed, something that needs some [00:55:00] love, some attention, some relief, whatever, you know, some kindness and support like the charge is there to show us also in, in some ways, like where we're not yet free or maybe where we have some stories about ourselves. Like, okay, so to your suggestion about JK Rowling, like if I was trans and I was being really triggered by that, it's, it could be because I have a story that it's triggering my story of unworthiness and some asshole out there is, is telling me that I'm inherently wrong.
Eva: Like my beingness is wrong. And so that brings up this really deep sense of hurt and therefore the charge is there to show me like, okay, where can I love myself more deeply? Where I don't have to like, where someone can like spit out this hate and this vitriol and I can just feel so I don't do whatever it is that I need to do to feel so in love with myself that it doesn't harm me in the way that it
Eva: might.
Kyley: Right. And maybe what the church, I mean this particular instance, maybe also what the church is [00:56:00] pointing to is how you're fucking pissed at the fact that you keep having to do that work. 'cause the world has made it unsafe for you to be you. And part of the wound is like, fuck you world, why don't you have my back and what you need.
Kyley: Right. And that's the
Eva: And then you might need something
Eva: else.
Kyley: say, because I think, um, sometimes our healing work or our healing journeys can feel like they're reinforcing a kind of hyper individualism that capitalism loves. And I have a good friend who has been asking some really juicy questions of me around hyper individualism and healing.
Kyley: And it just came up in my mind as you were,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: example of,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Um, I'm glad you made that point though, because I think that's like, uh, if we didn't mention that, then I think that that would, this whole conversation would be lost. It would be devoid of the main point, which is like. Again, we're talking about judgment and how that's harmful [00:57:00] and creates its divide, but, but let your judgment show you something like it's there for a reason.
Eva: And, and it can be just like, we've talked about this with jealousy, we've talked about this with, um, and it's any kind of, because I, judgment is just another trigger and we've had many conversations about how triggers can actually just, you know?
Kyley: The portal.
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and judgment is just a form of being triggered. And I think, but this is a really relevant conversation in our world right now because I don't know, the last fucking five, I don't know how long it's been, 10, five issues have been a shit show, dude. It's like there's just been more and more and more divide.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, and I think, um,
Eva: Wait, I'm sorry. I'm gonna add one more thing. And
Eva: it's tricky because it's like more divide that's being camouflaged as goodness. I think that's a lot. A lot of what like politics can be. It's like, [00:58:00] oh, I'm like that. I'm doing the right thing somehow.
Kyley: Um, well this makes me think of like cancel culture and like, and the, and the, the intersection of cancel culture and like that herd mentality thing that meet that you were talking about. Um. Versus like, I'm not even interested in canceling JK Rowling. I just don't give a fuck. Like, I just like it, it, and then maybe people, listeners that won't, there won't be a distinction there, but like, I'm, I'm just not interested in her existence.
Kyley: That's how I, that's how I'm dealing with what I perceive as a pretty gross level of toxicity. Um, and like using your platform for that, for that. Um, whereas I think our cancel culture makes, like, makes murders out of people and makes like, um, creates this like toxic thing where we all have to belong. And there's this, to me, there's this other [00:59:00] option, which is like, or you could just ignore that someone exists.
Kyley: Anyway, now I'm going on, on a whole rabbit hole.
Eva: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to connect it all together. I don't know. It was almost like once I stopped having such condemnation, I know I haven't fully stopped, but just seeing this all clearly, like, okay, maybe not having so much condemnation for the people. I could also just laugh at myself and like how I am all these things that I hate, that like these, these cliches that I've, that I've, so that I've literally become and like. How I've, again, have spent so much time trying to not be a cliche, and instead I can just be like, I think there's a sense of, I can laugh at it because I know that those things aren't real. Because any cliche that any person is that I judge as being a cliche, like that's me being shortsighted because they're a full, complex human being with like all the complex emotions and experiences that every single human being has.
Eva: And if like, I don't see that [01:00:00] because I'm labeling them or like lumping them into a cliche, like that's my problem, not theirs. Do you know what I mean? And so when I see that really clearly and I'm afraid of people judging me, I'm like, oh, that's your problem, not mine.
Kyley: What is it that you think is the fear? What is it about cliche that seems like such a, um,
Eva: Bad thing.
Kyley: yeah, like why are we each in our way, like afraid of being a cliche?,
Eva: I think you spoke to it really well earlier, and maybe this is just a part of it and maybe we can continue to unravel this, but I think it's because cliches aren't taken seriously.
Eva: Like a cliche is the Portlandia episode, it's the Instagram meme, it's the trope.
Eva: It's like, yeah, that's what it is. Any cliche is something that we're kind of like is, that's being made fun of. And again, for me, maybe I need to stop following the accounts that I follow on Instagram, because previously they were just really funny to me or whatever. But I get, I guess I, I see that [01:01:00] these cliches are made fun of constantly and so I don't wanna be made fun of, 'cause I'm like, oh, that person's being made fun of and I don't wanna be lumped into them because like you said, my work is serious. My work is real. You know, and, um, and yeah, maybe it's a self-conscious thing for me, like I'm self-conscious and insecure that if I'm a cliche, I'm just gonna be lumped in with these other folks who are not fully embodied, who are not the real deal, who are just doing it for likes and status or whatever.
Kyley: Which is an interesting claim because that immediately makes me think about how like, oh, I think I have to go make peace with the part of me who like is in it for the wrong reason. Right? Like that, that phrase people use like, oh, well, they're just in it for the wrong reasons. And I'm like, oh, who is the me?
Kyley: Who's in it for likes? And who is the me who is out of integrity and who is the me who the scammer? I mean, obviously I, [01:02:00] I don't wanna be I, but like, based on how intensely hot I am over this, clearly I have some anxiety about being in integrity. I. Right. And so who is the me who's out of integrity,
Eva: Yes, yes, yes,
Kyley: which there's something here like about, like we could just do imposter syndrome, right?
Kyley: But I think there's something, there's one way to tend to this that has to do with imposter syndrome and tending to imposter syndrome wounds and being like, no, no, no. You are a big deal. Like you, you aren't a cliche. You are a rich, nuanced human, and I think that's valuable, but I really love what you're pointing to, which is yes.
Kyley: And you, if you, I mean this is like, kind of like monster school work, right? Like you, you, you are the thing, you're so, you hate, you are the thing that you are so afraid of being. And if you don't acknowledge that, it's also true, you're gonna have to just keep running from it.
Eva: Yes. And I think like that is true humility. Like I, okay, so. [01:03:00] A thousand times. Yes. To what you're saying. And I think it's so beautiful actually, because there is humility in saying, I am that too. Because the truth is we're all, all things. And I think if we don't actually admit that we're not being honest with ourselves. And also that is what allows us to have compassion for other people. But like, so that was the experience at the school with Byron and Katie. I don't know how much I told you, but like we all had to write signs about like the thing that we hate the most. And then when we interacted with each other, we saw the humanity in each other.
Eva: And also how like, I'm guilty, I'm guilty of all the things that I judge people love. I'm so guilty. Like even, and Byron Katie gave this example of someone, like if someone called her a murderer, she would look for examples of, of how that's true in her life. And she was like, well, it's true. I have killed animals, you know, for eating.
Eva: I kill ants when they're in my house. She's like, I don't, I. Deny you could call me any of those things. And instead of coming back, back at you with defensiveness and [01:04:00] causing war, her practice was, let me look for ways that, that are, that that's true. And she's like, and there's never been an example of someone calling her something that she didn't, that was negative, that she couldn't find to be true.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: And I was like, well, that's just
Eva: honesty.
Kyley: Now you're making me think about the relationship between judgment and defensiveness. Right. And I had a, uh, I had an experience where my husband was upset about something. I had just made a, like weird kind of snippy comment that, you know, hurt his feelings. And I said I was sorry, but it still hurt the next day.
Kyley: And so he brought it, I could tell something was bothering him, so I was like, what's that? And I, and I, I knew what it was. Um, and, and, and he, to his credit told me and I said I was sorry again. But I was being kind of defensive. It was this weird energy and this has just happened, and now we're talking defensiveness.
Kyley: So it's on my mind where I was saying I'm sorry. And I meant it immediately. The [01:05:00] day before, I'd said I was sorry right away. I meant it again when I was standing there and he'd brought it back up. But he was like, you're being defensive. And there was this part of me that was like, no, I'm not listen to the tone of my voice.
Kyley: I'm saying I'm sorry. Right. And I, and, and he left the house, like, not even storm out, he just was like, oh, okay, well, you know, and I was upstairs taking a shower and I was like, oh yeah, I'm totally fucking defensive.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: was totally right. I was, I was saying the words, I'm sorry. And also I was defensive and the reason I was defensive was because I, I made me uncomfortable just how much I had hurt him.
Kyley: Right. So it was like, basically he was level eight hurt and I was level five, sorry. And I didn't really wanna go off level three to level eight. Sorry. Because I didn't really wanna admit how much I, you know, I didn't want that to be true. And
Eva: yes.
Kyley: and so, you know, then I, I got outta the shower. He came home and I was like, Hey, you were right.
Kyley: I was being defensive, but now I'm actually sorry,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: or, or the deeper I'm, the deeper sorry that you need in this moment[01:06:00]
Eva: Yes. Oh,
Eva: isn't that so beautiful though? It's so beautiful because like, that's that moment of connection and like vulnerability and intimacy that I think we all like so deeply crave. And that's like the real fucking thing. And that comes again from that humility. Like you have the humility to go inside yourself and also like admit that you're wrong.
Eva: I think. And I mean, there's so much that goes on there, but, and also I think admit like maybe if when we've hurt people, there's, and, and then, and then, and it burns, you know, like. This is the thing that Tom talks about a lot, which has been so helpful for me, is like, you let it fucking burn. Like me being a cliche is like funny, but also there's like a burning there.
Eva: But it's the burning of my ego, of, of what it is that I think that I need to, like my story of me and also my ego says I need to be a good fucking person. And when I [01:07:00] see something that like comes up against that, that is like, you're in your case, like there's defensiveness there because you're like, no, no, no, but like, I'm not exactly sure if this is what you're feeling, but some ver or you know, like there's lots of situations where it's like, no, but I'm a good person here. And, and if it, and if it's, that's disproved, that like feels shitty because our ego is holding onto the story of like, no, this is my, my image of myself. And to like to let that go is humility. And then we like connect with people with love. And I think that's like the whole game, like that's the whole thing that we want.
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes. And I'm just thinking now, I've never really put judgment and defensiveness. I've never seen how much they're like pals. But I'm thinking about, especially this game where we're looking at the outside world that we're judging. You know? And okay, if I'm, you know. Judging the mom who is like shitty, you know, who I perceive to be shitty with her kids and in and [01:08:00] unkind and like, doesn't validate their emotions.
Kyley: Right. That's a thing that I judge. I don't want to, but I do. Right. I hear, I hear mom send out in public and I'm like, I have this like, push and pull of like mad at them and then like judging them. Anyways. It's a whole, it's
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: uh, because I have been seen in public being a shithead to my kids. Let's be clear.
Eva: wait, wait, I'm sorry. I was just pause there because, because I don't want you to forget what you were gonna say, but like, I just think that's, I'm so happy you're speaking to that because I think that's a really complicated thing, this, this relationship with being a parent, right? Because like, uh, like that's not something I've had to experience, but like, I, I can't even imagine the layers that go there.
Kyley: yeah. And, and like being a mom who judges other moms sucks. 'cause it's really hard. And also it hap like, you, it you just happens.
Eva: you're, it's also a reflection of yourself, like
Kyley: That's what I was gonna say is that by, by pairing this like judgment, defensiveness thing, I feel like you're giving me a, like a, a really juicy tool that's like. But if I'm judging some mom for being shitty, perceived shitty to her kids, I am actually just defending the part of me who [01:09:00] knows she's also shitty to her.
Kyley: Right. Or, or experiences or believes that she's shitty to her kids. And so like
Eva: Yeah. Or feel, and then feel or feels guilty that she's shitty to her kids, and then that's where the defensiveness comes from.
Kyley: Right. Right, right. And so this question of like, I'm just thinking now if I'm judging someone, what am I defending against?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Which is another way of asking like how is that an internal judgment? But it just, just feels like a slightly different way to ask that question. If I'm judging someone, what is it that I'm defending against?
Eva: So you had asked a question earlier about like, um, what something about like how you judge, you know, these healers or business people on who aren't like in living, who aren't living in integrity. Maybe they're scammers. And then you were saying something about that these people like trigger something in you and. I can't exactly remember what the question was, but I feel like my answer that I wanted to share about myself was that like, I think what this brings up in me is [01:10:00] my story of badness. For me, it's often comes down to my story of badness, of like, these people trigger me because I'm afraid I might, I don't know, there's some weird thing where I'm afraid that I might be like them, or, um, they're like a mirror for me.
Eva: And it comes back to like, wait, what if I'm not trustworthy? What if I'm, I don't know, just some not trusting my innate goodness. Some version of that. And it always comes back to that because I actually think we live in a world where we're taught that we can't be trusted and we live in a world of good or bad, right and wrong. And those stories are so fucking strong that I'm constantly like checking like, am I being good? Am I being good? Am I, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? And it's like the, you know, like I've had conversations with you previously about how like, I feel like the self condemnation is releasing. But
Eva: that is sort of also like the water that I swim in.
Kyley: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. The, [01:11:00] the. The, and the badness is, it's really dangerous to be bad because it feels like shame because it's to be cast out of love. Like the stakes are really high. And so if there's any threat that, you know, release things that, that if there's any threat that if you let something in or you let yourself have something, or that you let yourself be something that's, you'll be bad.
Kyley: Like we'll fight a tooth and nail, which is my aha that just happened. Listeners, I started making like a real stink face and had to pause to take a long note because we realized, you know, coming out of this like absolutely massive transformation of the past nine months, it's been really, really clear to me that I'm like, okay, nervous system, sub subconscious beliefs like this shit's on lock.
Kyley: I'm, you know, this thing I've been saying of like, I know I'm a, I know that I have this big magic and I'm like, ready to let it unleash in the world. And, and in that is some frustration. It's like, so what is taking so long? You know, this shit is five years old. Like, what, why, what is taking so long? Um. [01:12:00] Just yesterday was the five year LLC registration,
Eva: my goodness.
Kyley: My business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, and I'm not yet a millionaire, everybody. Uh, and, and my stink face was realizing, okay, I have clearly this like, fire about business coaches or, or coaches who are out of integrity, right? And who like have offer false promises and don't deliver and just take people's money and what do they all have in common?
Kyley: They all have a lot of money.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: So what's the easiest way in the world that I can just show, like with a quick stamp of approval that I'm not one of them, I just won't be a millionaire.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: It's a very nice way to protect from being the thing that, to your point, is bad.
Eva: Wow. I mean, that makes sense. I think that's actually really common. We have a story that people with money are evil. I mean, again, on my list of that list of like with billionaires, I condemn billionaires. Even though, [01:13:00] you know, part of me still wants to like fight for that. I'm like, well, of course I condemn them.
Eva: They like, they shouldn't have all this me, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't know them. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't. Anyway, whatever. That's a whole sidebar. So. But we relate. Money is bad. We, we associate money with evil, bad, and
Eva: so I think that's why a lot of us don't wanna make money because
Eva: we think money, we, we still believe in money is bad.
Kyley: this is what's blowing my mind. Like this is what I fucking teach everybody, right? Like this is, this is why this shit is so hilarious, right? Is like. I mean, how many times have I unhooked from the money is evil thing? I can't even count how many times I've done it. And also, I can't even count on people who I've held in exactly the space of like, you're not bad for wanting money and all of the subsequent whatever, whatever.
Kyley: But this is like a new little facet of it, which is, I don't necessarily think that money is evil or that people with money are evil, but I know there is a particular person, there's a particular type of person who performs [01:14:00] in a way that that like one of the tells of their badness is that they have a lot of money.
Kyley: Right? It's not every business coach, I don't think that has a lot of money. I don't. It's like a very specific kind of person that also just happens to have a lot of money and because they don't wanna be that so badly throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Eva: Yes. Well con congratulations. I think
Eva: congratulations in in noticing it, because I think this is a wonderful example of how it's coming up to the conscious level, and now it can happen really quickly, actually, I think, where it just dissolves, but
Kyley: Right. Absolutely. Because I mean, what's interesting is it's like two things are happening. One is I'm watching how I'm not just watching money fall away as like it doesn't have to be associated with that person. Right? Like I can just basically, I can just like them for other reasons, right? I don't have to, the money doesn't have to be the measuring stick.
Kyley: And then also I'm like, okay, and we gotta get in touch with, we gotta get in touch with this self who we think is so wildly out of integrity. So we'll report back on that. Here's my question for you though, Eva,
Eva: Mm-hmm.[01:15:00]
Kyley: because what prompted all this was plant medicine and what your plant medicine,
Eva: Uhhuh.
Kyley: so like two questions you pick, which one feels the most interesting?
Kyley: Is there something about sharing about plant medicine in particular that feels rife with judgment and self combination and defensiveness? And does it feel different? You know, after talking about it for a little bit?
Eva: Um, yes. So I think I can, I can speak to those, both, both of those things quickly. 'cause I think it's like they're connected. But again, I had a prejudice against the reason, was there something particularly that I had a prejudice against, I guess with people, plant medicine? I don't know. I don't even know where these judgments come from.
Eva: It's like, I, I do think it's like culture. 'cause like I have a story of like, again, sorry, white women. I'm sorry, but it's always like white women.
Kyley: We, we de we, yeah, we deserve it. Just, it's fine if we can't handle it, get the fuck out.[01:16:00]
Eva: Oh man. I'm sorry, but okay. And also this is very triggering for some people who are listening and, and, and, and,
Kyley: Congratulations. I hope it serves you well.
Eva: but it, but it is. Yes. Okay. But it's some story of like, the Burning Man, I don't know, person who just uses plant medicine irresponsibly, I guess. And then they, they come on and they think that they've have reached like, I don't know,
Eva: guru,
Kyley: they got another, they're a shaman. That that whole thing.
Eva: yeah, guru status. And they're like, I don't know. Again, they're just the trope on Instagram.
Eva: And again, it's actually really help, like helpful for me to say this out loud because I'm seeing like, this is event problem. This is a me problem, Kyley, I'm the one being judgemental.
Eva: I don't even know who these people are. This person doesn't actually exist in my mind, in, in real life that I know. I don't know any person like this.
Eva: I mean, do I, do I, I don't think so. I think it's really just me being really fucking judgemental. [01:17:00] I'm a judgmental Capricorn bitch. Holy shit. I'm so judgmental. Oh my God. This is what's happening. This is an event problem. It's a me problem.
Kyley: So I am, can I clock something? Speaking of Capricorn, um, because there's a thread, there's two phrases that you use that like leapt out at me as interesting. Um, or particularly like noteworthy. And one, when you were talking about social media influencers and how they're quote unquote doing it for the likes.
Kyley: And then other is this idea of using plant medicine irresponsibly, which is really interesting because what, what I hear in that is that what you're judging is your perception of their motivation. Like you basically, part of this judgment piece seems like your motivation has to be pure or right or responsible.
Eva: Oh, so that's interesting because I think this is my version of what you're saying about
Eva: coaches who are out of integrity. It's the same thing. We're both afraid of being coaches that are, or [01:18:00] we both judge people who are out of integrity. Oh, it's the same thing. Oh, interesting. We got there. Okay, we got there.
Eva: Wow. It is the same thing though, 'cause like
Eva: it, yeah. Okay. Thank you. First of all, thank you for just pulling that out. So, uh, eloquently or and elegant elegantly, but yeah. It's about people being out of integrity.
Kyley: Oh.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: So next week we're gonna do an integrity episode.
Eva: Wow. Okay. But also, yeah, I'm a judgmental Capricorn. There it is.
Kyley: Well, I was also laughing because irresponsibility and wrong, like doing it for the wrong, it just feels like such a particular Capricorn flavor of,
Eva: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: so you know, as someone who loves many Capricorns, are you judgmental or do you just know what's the right way to do something?
Eva: I like the second part better. Obviously, I just know the right way to do something. Duh. But anyway, [01:19:00] um, this has been such a juicy conversation, Kyley, and I think there's more for me to like learn here, but, um, but,
Eva: but I,
Kyley: you feel ready to talk about plant? That's my other question. Do you feel ready to talk about plant medicine more now?
Eva: okay. Yes. Thank you for asking me that second. Yes. Asking me that question. And this relates back to the second part of your question earlier, which is like, does it feel different now that we've had this conversation? And it actually does because it's helping me see that, like, I don't know why, but my feeling now is like, my experiences have been so real. They've been so honest and true for me. And I think that's all that matters.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: I can really sense of like, I have. Fear of like, oh, how I'm gonna be perceived and like, and maybe I'm afraid that people are going to perceive me as being, having, being irresponsible or out of integrity. [01:20:00] And I can also just speak from my heart. And I think like that's all that like I can do and that's all that I really want to do. And, and that, and if I can't, if I'm afraid to do that actually because of how I'm perceived, um, that's also like not a way to live. And coming back to what I was saying about like our lived experiences are so much more important than like our thoughts about them, that I do feel like I can have a more embodied conversation about those things. And part of that is also like being willing to be misunderstood and also, um, owning the parts of me that like are a cliche instead of like fighting them. Yeah. Like just being like, yeah, that's true.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Well, also because I'm not identified, there's also like [01:21:00] when I like own it, there's something that happens with my ego where I'm not either identified with myself either.
Eva: 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, those things are true, but like that's not who I am. You know what I mean?
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I think this is where like the whiteness part of the White Lady Shaman thing doesn't bother me is it doesn't feel triggering because it's an identity that I'm holding kind of loosely. And also I, I, I did a lot to get ready, right? I like got, I had to make, I actually, because I think it's a, it is a culturally sensitive thing.
Kyley: It was like, I can't say this, I'm not going to say this until I'm in integrity with You can, you can bring your shit and your frustration at me and I can, I can absorb it and you can tell me I'm wrong and I can listen and be curious and open and not defensive. Um,
Eva: Wow. That's beautiful Kai. See, that's a wonderful example of something that's been integrated, which I think is the same version of Byron Katie being like. You can say anything to me and I won't be defensive
Eva: because I've integrated it.
Kyley: Because it's not the same thing as like, [01:22:00] oh, like I know I'm right and I have every right to be shaman and fuck you. It's like, well, maybe you'll say something that is, that inspires me to come up with a different label. I'm interested. Right.
Eva: Humility. Humility. And I think that comes when we're not so attached to our ego stories, which is a sense. Same thing as being like not insecure,
Eva: like not, not self-conscious. Yeah. Or therefore not defensive.
Kyley: and I'm just planting this, I'm, I'm, I'm putting down the prayer to inviting clarity of if it's not that part of it, what's the other, like, I, there's a still a little bit of like, what exactly. I think we've, this conversation's giving me a lot of clarity on what the, like, business, money, wealth, uh, tension is, but I think there's still some muddled ness around what it is that I'm so, mm.
Kyley: Con concerned and judgmental and cagey about with the shaman, magic, mystical thing. So I don't know. I'm open. So spirit life reveal it to [01:23:00] me.
Eva: Yeah. All right. Well when you figure it out, please report back.
Kyley: Will do, will do. Should we do joy?
Eva: Yes. Let's share our joy.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: My beloved? Uh, what's bring you joy right now?
Eva: My joy is, being in the fucking tropics was just like, been so nice for me. I feel like I'm back in the, I don't know, back where I belong. So, um, what do I mean by that? Uh, Brazil, you know, when I was there it was wintertime and though it was like relatively nice, it was like hot for a while, but then once it became winter it was not hot.
Eva: And you know, I like it to be hot. And so, um, I am loving like the trees here. Uh, they have tortilla chips here, which they don't have in Brazil. And um. Just like the, the, the, like the plants [01:24:00] and the bugs and I don't know, there's something different about being in the tropics that I think is very familiar to my, like motherland of Taiwan ness and that just has felt so invigorating me.
Eva: But also the tortilla chips are huge because like do you have like a go-to snack?
Kyley: Uh, yes, and I'm sure I would be especially aware of it if it suddenly disappeared.
Eva: Yes. Well anyway, tortilla chips are like my thing and I was very sad when I didn't have them. But you know, being back in,
Kyley: Okay. I love topical tortilla chip, having Eva.
Eva: yes, back in being in Central America is definitely, has been really lovely. Okay. What about you?
Kyley: Right. I thought I would have an answer and I'm still, gimme a sec.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Listeners know that I've been going through, you know, some heartbreak and some healing as a result of that. And it's been intense in ways that are surprising and I've talked about quite a bit on the show.
Kyley: And it's been about nine months as a time of recording this, and I am emerging. I [01:25:00] can actually feel the emerging happening. You know, I wanted to emerge many times I demanded and insisted that I had in fact emerged. I had not,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I mean, the number of times that you were like, baby girl, it's gonna take the time it's gonna take.
Kyley: And I was like, no. Time is now done. I will never think of this again. Uh, and I, uh, I I just feel like I have my, I just have space in my heart and my mind that was occupied and, and I have that real estate back and it feels fucking good. You know, it feels, it feels good to have the capacity to really, in a deeply embodied and compassionate way, be able to lay something self-compassionate way to like lay something to rest.
Kyley: And, and I'm really fucking proud of the way that I haven't self abandoned, right? That I, even though I've been like, no, it's over. It's [01:26:00] fine. I'm fine. When I wasn't fine, I let, I let myself not be fine. Right. That I didn't, I I, I let this take the time it was gonna take, even though I didn't always enjoy how long I, it seems to be taking for me.
Kyley: Um, and. That's not to say that it's, you know, healing and evolving and blah, blah blah is infinite, but I just feel an emergence and a liberating and like I have my mental and emotional real estate back and I am really glad to have it back.
Eva: I mean, honestly, I can, yeah, I can feel it.
Eva: It feels something's, I mean, I think you've been emer, like it's been a, you've been emerging this whole time. You know what I
Eva: mean? Because it's a process. And also I can just sense how, uh, there's something different
Eva: now.
Kyley: yes. I think that's it. Absolutely. Every, every step, every day has been a [01:27:00] gradual emerging and you know, it's like that little bit, little bit and all of a sudden kind of feeling and, um, and yeah, it just feels, it just feels good to. I wanna say to be back, but that's also not true because I am, I don't know who that person was from 10 months
Eva: Mm. Yes.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: I'm excited to find out who I am now, actually.
Eva: oh, that is
Kyley: All these new resources and tools and, you know,
Eva: I'm excited too, honestly. Yeah, because I know that you've been changed.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, dear ones, we love you so much. If this episode was interesting, helpful for you, resonated, whatever, please, um, like, subscribe, send us a review, share it with your friends. We love it when you share it with your friends.
Eva: We love you.
Kyley: Hi.